Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Statto]

Timekeeping and reliability on the 5 group of services is notoriously poor, it was less of an issue pre Covid when the combined frequency was every 15 minutes, formed of a half hourly 5 and a half hourly 5D (previously numbered X5) which meant if (when) services were disrupted you just waited for the next bus.

With the current combined 20 minute headway, the 5 runs on a 20/40 frequency and the 5D hourly, so if there is disruption or buses missing you could potentially wait up an hour for the next 5D or 40 minutes for a 5!

Sometimes the delays to the 5/5D routes are due to excessive patronage, it takes a while to board and alight as tourists ask lots of questions of the drivers mainly because there is no publicity/timetables at any bus stops en-route and there are no timetable leaflets, route maps or marketing leaflets available.

There is, of course, the Arriva website……! LOL!

Before covid most of the North Wales councils published their own timetable books which were very good, (for me Conwy was the best of them), now they just fob you off with a QR code in the timetable display case at the bus stop, with the lazy attitude, bus times are changing so often, that they're not bothering having any timetable displays up at bus stops, & done away with the timetable books.

Arriva's site is the worst bus site on the net, prime example how to put passengers off from using their buses

Another issue with the 5, 5C, 5D, they could do with deckers, but the low height of the Castle walls around Conwy Town Centre prohibits them, another reason the route could be split at Bangor.

 

[RELL6L]

An update on Wycombe, further to my post 1776.

Four E400s have moved from Aylesbury, 5457-5460. Until today 5457 was tracking as 5458 but now all correct. They have revived the other deckers broken down there so there are eight on the road, the 4 E4400s, one DAF (4749) and three B9TLS (4210-4212). I don't get the impression they are very reliable. There are three decker boards on the 800/850/11 (all interworked) by the looks of it and these look to be the first picks for them, others being more randomly strewn around although clearly include some workings on the Bourne End routes and many journeys on the 4.

At Aylesbury the other 14-plate E400s, 4400 and 4401, haven't tracked since the weekend before last so I guess they have gone somewhere else. Aylesbury now just has nine deckers, 5461-5469. They still operate the 300/X30, 500 and 280/X8 but you have to wonder about the depot's future, 300/X30 could be run from Wycombe and the 500 from Hemel. The 280/X8 has strong competition (as does the 300/X30) from Redline. All the routes appear to be interworked with a mix of deckers and singles (Citaros and Pulsars).

Wycombe's 3013 has also been resuscitated while 3016 and DAF 3741 have gone to Aylesbury. The 3 looks to be the main home of the Streetlites, the 10 and 13 are interworked with pretty solidly Versas, the 2 and 12 interwork with each other but also swap with other routes in a very complex way, no pattern I can discern, presumably either based around driver shifts or to catch up with traffic congestion or other events. So deckers, Citaros, Versa, the MCV Evolution and the odd Streetlite can appear on any route.

 

[Titfield]

Before covid most of the North Wales councils published their own timetable books which were very good, (for me Conwy was the best of them), now they just fob you off with a QR code in the timetable display case at the bus stop, with the lazy attitude, bus times are changing so often, that they're not bothering having any timetable displays up at bus stops, & done away with the timetable books.

Arriva's site is the worst bus site on the net, prime example how to put passengers off from using their buses

Another issue with the 5, 5C, 5D, they could do with deckers, but the low height of the Castle walls around Conwy Town Centre prohibits them, another reason the route could be split at Bangor.

There are a number of intertwined issues here.

1. Should bus companies produce their own hard copy timetables and timetable leaflets? Factors in play when considering this are: a) the costs of production b) the lifespan of the product bearing in mind that one change could theoretically make a whole tt book obsolete c) the challenge of getting the tt book into the hands of those who wish to check times etc d) whether online can deliver this so much more effectively.

2. Should local authorities produce area timetables which encompass the service of more than one operator? Factors in play are all the above in (1) but with the added consideration should tax payers money spent in this way? One of the problems is that 2/3rds + of all council tax revenue is being spent on delivering statutory services. There is many demands on the money left for non statutory services and one has to consider if producing tt books is a sufficiently high enough priority.

 

[rich.davies]

Out of the 5 North Wales councils, only Gwynedd have pdf links for the services that operate in/out of the county.

Wrexham: Have have links to operators websites. (Some of which are taxi/private hire companies, which dont list the timetables).

Flintshire: Have 5 pdf timetables on the site for Townlynx and P&O Lloyd with a link to the Arriva Website.

Denbighshire: 9 pdf timetables on the site for local/drt services. Shows link to Arriva & Lloyds website.

Conwy: Links to operator sites and Fflecsi drt site.

Are TFW are planning on combining timetabling services and have one goto website for them in future, bit similar to Traveline?

 

[TheSel]

... Another issue with the 5, 5C, 5D, they could do with deckers, but the low height of the Castle walls around Conwy Town Centre prohibits them, another reason the route could be split at Bangor.

Well, technically, yes - but of course 'deckers used to fit through Conwy walls. All day every day.

Now, we could argue all day about whether drivers were more skilled in those days, how much dimensions of vehicles have changed since the 1980s/1990s, and how attitudes to perceived Health and Safety issues have changed, but "where there's a will ..." etc. One option would be to deploy a 'decker and omit Conwy on one of the three services an hour by operating it through the Conwy tunnel. Through passengers would still have an even twenty minute service Caernarfon - Bangor - Llandudno, and there'd be a 20/40 split to/from Conwy. However, we're now diverging into 'Speculative Discussion' territory.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Moving back South for a minute, there have been two occasions recently where I've used the 700 Chatham to Bluewater which is still advertised as a sapphire branded service but hasn't necessarily had sapphire specced vehicles regularly allocated to it since I've lived here. In the last couple of weeks a Streetlite been allocated on at least one diagram. Is this just yet another case of using whatever is available to run the service, or are they making a concerted effort to use cheaper to operate single decks on what might be perceived as quieter journeys? The dual carriageway section certainly was anything but quiet on this particular journey.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, technically, yes - but of course 'deckers used to fit through Conwy walls. All day every day.

Now, we could argue all day about whether drivers were more skilled in those days, how much dimensions of vehicles have changed since the 1980s/1990s, and how attitudes to perceived Health and Safety issues have changed, but "where there's a will ..." etc. One option would be to deploy a 'decker and omit Conwy on one of the three services an hour by operating it through the Conwy tunnel. Through passengers would still have an even twenty minute service Caernarfon - Bangor - Llandudno, and there'd be a 20/40 split to/from Conwy. However, we're now diverging into 'Speculative Discussion' territory.

I certainly remember travelling on deckers on the 5 - Crosville Wales VRs passing Penmaenmawr and along the coast to Bangor. I confess I can't remember the route in Conwy but has it changed since the 1990s? Seems to go under a 12'0 arch which a VR obviously couldn't manage.

 

[markymark2000]

Well, technically, yes - but of course 'deckers used to fit through Conwy walls. All day every day.

Deckers do still fit through all day every day. The Alpine City Sightseeing deckers go through there. I presume they are low height deckers though or something?

 

[duncombec]

Moving back South for a minute, there have been two occasions recently where I've used the 700 Chatham to Bluewater which is still advertised as a sapphire branded service but hasn't necessarily had sapphire specced vehicles regularly allocated to it since I've lived here. In the last couple of weeks a Streetlite been allocated on at least one diagram. Is this just yet another case of using whatever is available to run the service, or are they making a concerted effort to use cheaper to operate single decks on what might be perceived as quieter journeys? The dual carriageway section certainly was anything but quiet on this particular journey.

There aren't any true sapphire vehicles at Gillingham now, and haven't been since the repaint of the former 101-branded E400s was completed earlier this year. That the old ones retain their kit is more accident than design. Indeed, the 700 being a sapphire service always was more in name than reality.

Streetlites are a regular allocation to the 700 at any time - indeed, Arriva Southern Counties appear to have the current license for the "random allocation generator".

 

[Andyh82]

I certainly remember travelling on deckers on the 5 - Crosville Wales VRs passing Penmaenmawr and along the coast to Bangor. I confess I can't remember the route in Conwy but has it changed since the 1990s? Seems to go under a 12'0 arch which a VR obviously couldn't manage.

The arch pictured here is the bigger Llandudno bound arch, but presumably the bus had no issue with the Bangor bound arch

Arriva Cymru 3358 P941MKL

Volvo Olympian / Northern Counties Palatine H45/30F. Before the Conwy tunnel opened in 1991, all eastbound traffic on the main A55 trunk road from Anglesey to Chester passed through this narrow arch in the historic town walls. The traffic was slowed to a crawl as the approach is at 90 degrees...

www.flickr.com

How tall is an Arriva spec Wrightbus Gemini 2DL

 

[Statto]

The arch pictured here is the bigger Llandudno bound arch, but presumably the bus had no issue with the Bangor bound arch

Arriva Cymru 3358 P941MKL

Volvo Olympian / Northern Counties Palatine H45/30F. Before the Conwy tunnel opened in 1991, all eastbound traffic on the main A55 trunk road from Anglesey to Chester passed through this narrow arch in the historic town walls. The traffic was slowed to a crawl as the approach is at 90 degrees...

www.flickr.com

How tall is an Arriva spec Wrightbus Gemini 2DL

That's surprised me as i thought the walls were lower than that, certainly high enough for the old, low height Leyland Olympians, & Bristol deckers that Crosville, Crosville Wales had, but not high enough for standard height buses.

 

[Mwanesh]

Does the 757 (Luton - London) count?

I saw an Arriva London bus in Brentwood. The 498 I think. Romford to Brentwood service

 

[MasterSpenny]

I saw an Arriva London bus in Brentwood. The 498 I think. Romford to Brentwood service

Isn’t it operated by Stagecoach London though?
Source its operated by Stagecoach London: physical buses on the route

 

[Contains Nuts]

Do Arriva run anything across the London boundary other than the 724 (Harlow-Heathrow) and 477 (Dartford-Orpington)?

313 Potters Bar to Chingford
370 Romford to Lakeside
405 Croydon to Redhill
428 Erith to Bluewater
492 Sidcup to Bluewater

There’s probably quite a few more given the likes of Loughton and Chigwell are not part of Greater London, even though they have TfL providing bus services.

 

[alex397]

313 Potters Bar to Chingford
370 Romford to Lakeside
405 Croydon to Redhill
428 Erith to Bluewater
492 Sidcup to Bluewater

There’s probably quite a few more given the likes of Loughton and Chigwell are not part of Greater London, even though they have TfL providing bus services.

I suspect Man of Kent was referring to non-TfL services, which all of those are.

So, it is (I think) just the 477, 508, 724 and 757 that cross from the provinces into London.

In Hertfordshire, the 251 and 310 come close to the border at Waltham Cross, which curiously has a TfL run bus station but is actually outside of the London boundary in Herts (the only TfL bus station to be outside London I believe)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The arch pictured here is the bigger Llandudno bound arch, but presumably the bus had no issue with the Bangor bound arch

Arriva Cymru 3358 P941MKL

Volvo Olympian / Northern Counties Palatine H45/30F. Before the Conwy tunnel opened in 1991, all eastbound traffic on the main A55 trunk road from Anglesey to Chester passed through this narrow arch in the historic town walls. The traffic was slowed to a crawl as the approach is at 90 degrees...

www.flickr.com

How tall is an Arriva spec Wrightbus Gemini 2DL

The VDL DB300s are 13'10 (I think)

As I say, I can recall travelling on VRs but I can't recall the route taken.

 

[Andyh82]

The VDL DB300s are 13'10 (I think)

As I say, I can recall travelling on VRs but I can't recall the route taken.

Before the tunnel was built, there was no other route than through the arches in the Conwy walls

 

[Man of Kent]

I suspect Man of Kent was referring to non-TfL services, which all of those are.

So, it is (I think) just the 477, 508, 724 and 757 that cross from the provinces into London.

Yes, non-TfL was indeed what I meant. But it took me some time to work out that 508 is not a Harlow-based route, but is in the Watford area (are these both Arriva Kent Thameside?).

 

[alex397]

Yes, non-TfL was indeed what I meant. But it took me some time to work out that 508 is not a Harlow-based route, but is in the Watford area (are these both Arriva Kent Thameside?).

I also originally thought 508 was referring to the 508 from Harlow to Stansted Airport, but it is the route from Hemel Hempstead and Watford to the Mount Vernon Hospital which used to be the 8.
Not sure if it’s the same subsidiary as Harlow, I find Arriva subsidiaries rather confusing!

 

[Statto]

I suspect Man of Kent was referring to non-TfL services, which all of those are.

So, it is (I think) just the 477, 508, 724 and 757 that cross from the provinces into London.

In Hertfordshire, the 251 and 310 come close to the border at Waltham Cross, which curiously has a TfL run bus station but is actually outside of the London boundary in Herts (the only TfL bus station to be outside London I believe)

310 used to go in to London, 310 Hertford - Enfield, but was cut back to Hertford - Waltham Cross, think just after TFL was formed.

 

[Mwanesh]

310 used to go in to London, 310 Hertford - Enfield, but was cut back to Hertford - Waltham Cross, think just after TFL was formed.

310 was cut back to Waltham Cross in 2006 I think.

 

[JKP]

I certainly remember travelling on deckers on the 5 - Crosville Wales VRs passing Penmaenmawr and along the coast to Bangor. I confess I can't remember the route in Conwy but has it changed since the 1990s? Seems to go under a 12'0 arch which a VR obviously couldn't manage.

Crosville used Bristol FS double deckers through Conwy. I have photos of them somewhere. Does Arriva noyé have low height dds somewhere in their empire that could be transferred to Llandudno Junction?

 

[Llandudno]

Crosville used Bristol FS double deckers through Conwy. I have photos of them somewhere. Does Arriva noyé have low height dds somewhere in their empire that could be transferred to Llandudno Junction?

Sadly no Arriva depot in Llandudno Junction anymore. The 5 group of services are operated from the ‘new’ Bangor depot at Llandygai, as a consequence first buses start quite late from Llandudno and the last bus from Bangor is 2147.

There is a small Arriva outstation at the Alpine Coach depot on Builder Street, Llandudno which mainly operate Llandudno and Conwy town services plus the 13 to Prestatyn.

 

[markymark2000]

Does Arriva noyé have low height dds somewhere in their empire that could be transferred to Llandudno Junction?

Aren't Chesters Enviro 400s and the Rhyl Geminis are low height because of Shotton Railway Bridge?

 

[Deerfold]

310 was cut back to Waltham Cross in 2006 I think.

Finally. The 311 stopped a few years earlier (they used to be every half hour each, so used to be every quarter hour Hertford to Waltham Cross and half hourly to Enfield).

They struggled to compete with the fares inside London.

 

[Andyh82]

Aren't Chesters Enviro 400s and the Rhyl Geminis are low height because of Shotton Railway Bridge?

Pretty much all Arriva non London Geminis are low height aren’t they?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aren't Chesters Enviro 400s and the Rhyl Geminis are low height because of Shotton Railway Bridge?

The Gemini 2 was specifically designed for Arriva’s provincial operations. Big batch for Liverpool plus Wales and Winsford, and others to North East and Yorkshire, on DB300 and B5LH chassis IIRC

 

[pm2304877]

With the closure of Bolton depot the only Greater Manchester depot will be Wythenshawe and will be non contiguous with the Arriva North West region. This region will be Merseyside, West Lancs, Halton with four routes (7, 110 319 and X30) entering Warrington, and six entering Wigan (320, 352,360,375, 385 and 395) . I can see Wythenshawe being sold to another operator but there are no plans I am aware of. The allocation consists of 10 ADL E300s, 8 MB Sprinters and 17 VDL SB200 Wright Pulsars , total 35. My source is Quack77 Buslists.uk..

 

[bussnapperwm]

With the closure of Bolton depot the only Greater Manchester depot will be Wythenshawe and will be non contiguous with the Arriva North West region. This region will be Merseyside, West Lancs, Halton with four routes (7, 110 319 and X30) entering Warrington, and six entering Wigan (320, 352,360,375, 385 and 395) . I can see Wythenshawe being sold to another operator but there are no plans I am aware of. The allocation consists of 10 ADL E300s, 8 MB Sprinters and 17 VDL SB200 Wright Pulsars , total 35. My source is Quack77 Buslists.uk..

Isn't the routes at Wythenshawe meant to be coming under Bee Network in 2025?

 

[pm2304877]

Isn't the routes at Wythenshawe meant to be coming under Bee Network in 2025?

Depends if Arriva win the area franchise bid. Other events may intervene regarding Arriva's future ownership, but the Wythenshawe operation is detached from Arriva NW. I think that Arriva may concentrate on Merseyside and West Lancs. A decade ago they were aiming to be larger in Manchester but thats history now.