Armed forces personnel using trains

[telstarbox]

noticing the post about getting naval officers back to base I recall that most staff would watch out for any forces trying to get back to base before a 48 hour expired. This would mainly be on a Sunday afternoon/evening. As in the 1970s most signalmen and foremen had done National Service they would usually do all they could to help - especially if the service had gone up the spout. This could easily involve holding back Class 1 trains and letting a Class 2 into a platform first so that a connection could be made. The grapevine was used to forward necessary info to get people back to base - sometimes over very long distances. Also unofficial stops could be achieved for forces people to hop onto a train by signal checking a train in a platform. As I recall some of the guards (usually younger and not ex-forces) would yell and shout but they would catch an earful from the older staff - if they made any reports they would find themselves reported for anything and everything.

(The above post from the BR thread.)

In the war years, the traveller on Crewe station, any time round about 1 p.m., would hear the loudspeakers announce, in the flat, tired tones so common to the period, "Platform No. 3 for the Thurso train, H.M. Forces only."

That was all, and if, intrigued by the discovery of a through train to the remotest part of the L.M.S. system, he tried to get further information, more likely than not he would meet with no response. For the "Jellicoes" were special and "hush-hush."

From Friends of the Far North Line - http://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/0109/010921.html

Clearly there were plenty of troop trains during the wars but do today's armed forces staff still use trains to get to and from bases? Is the warrant purchase system still in operation?

 

[paul1609]

Yes we do still use trains but there are far less people in the armed forces these days and the majority of travel is by car. Anglo-Scottish travel has largely gone over to air.
Routine Rail travel is booked through HRG group and you get a TOD reference to collect the tickets. I do still have warrants to issue in Urgent or compassion cases but they are rarely used these days. Rail staff are still supposed to give assistance to members of the armed forces on duty travel. Ive never had to use it but the general attitude of rail staff towards HMF is very positive in my experience theres still a lot of ex- Forces staff on the railways in some areas.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Used to see the occasional sub-mariner on a warrant ticket passing through the north-west returning to Faslane. Although Garelochhead is the nearest station the service level is so low tickets were invariably issued to/from Helensburgh.

 

[paul1609]

I occasionally use the sleepers staff tell me Im the only person that ever gets on the sleeper at Garelochead for a trip down to London. I don't think Ive ever seen more than another couple people get on or off the day trains there either by far the majority of the times Im the sole passenger. Most of the long distance travel from Faslane is by air now.

 

[Taunton]

A generation (maybe more) ago a standard officer training initiative test was to be taken by sealed lorry somewhere remote, let out with nothing, and told to get back to base pronto, which was timed. A common one from RN Dartmouth was to be released somewhere in the Brecon Beacons. The normal way back was to sneak onto trains through back platform entrances, and evade the collector. Most of the latter were quite long serving and could spot such - I heard they even invited them in for a cuppa in the van on occasion.

Does this still go on?

 

[mpthomson]

A generation (maybe more) ago a standard officer training initiative test was to be taken by sealed lorry somewhere remote, let out with nothing, and told to get back to base pronto, which was timed. A common one from RN Dartmouth was to be released somewhere in the Brecon Beacons. The normal way back was to sneak onto trains through back platform entrances, and evade the collector. Most of the latter were quite long serving and could spot such - I heard they even invited them in for a cuppa in the van on occasion.

Does this still go on?

Not any more. Navexes are still run, just on the larger training areas. The sneaky beaky types still do escape and evasion, obviously, but this wouldn't involve any train travel.

Referring to the OP, the use of white fleet hire cars or vans is much more common now too, particularly when travelling to courses etc as the amount of kit we often have to take makes train travel difficult (massive DPM or MTP bergan, plus large black grip bag plus suit bag carrier for mess kit/suits plus a day sack) and a bit of an obvious identifier as to who we are.

 

[sw1ller]

I remember taking everything I owned from wendover to Beverly via London. I must of had 9 big bags with me, trying to get them all down an escalator on the tube was very interesting. Nobody in the RAF training camp told me I didn’t have to take everything and I was just left to crack on. I managed rather poorly until 2 other RAF guys found me struggling and helped me all the way to the new camp. Luckily they were going that way too. Looking back I was so daft!! Now I’m a train driver and see it happen every so often too. I always offer to help people with their bags if I’m able. Good times. I used a rail warrant many times. Always good on virgin trains as they let us into 1st class if there was space. Good days. Don’t miss it though.

 

[telstarbox]

Rail warrants are still in use yes? I've seen references to them for new recruits on the Army website.

 

[telstarbox]

A generation (maybe more) ago a standard officer training initiative test was to be taken by sealed lorry somewhere remote, let out with nothing, and told to get back to base pronto, which was timed. A common one from RN Dartmouth was to be released somewhere in the Brecon Beacons. The normal way back was to sneak onto trains through back platform entrances, and evade the collector. Most of the latter were quite long serving and could spot such - I heard they even invited them in for a cuppa in the van on occasion.

Does this still go on?

That sounds like fun!

 

[AlterEgo]

Rail warrants are still in use yes? I've seen references to them for new recruits on the Army website.

Yes they are still in use. And not just for the armed forces.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A generation (maybe more) ago a standard officer training initiative test was to be taken by sealed lorry somewhere remote, let out with nothing, and told to get back to base pronto, which was timed. A common one from RN Dartmouth was to be released somewhere in the Brecon Beacons. The normal way back was to sneak onto trains through back platform entrances, and evade the collector. Most of the latter were quite long serving and could spot such - I heard they even invited them in for a cuppa in the van on occasion.

Does this still go on?

Better than that - a train of loco , 3 VDA wagons and an air braked brakevan would be requested to run from Hereford Goods on a Friday evening to a destination either in the North or the Far West (you can probably work out where) , loaded with trainee officers who had come from "somewhere in Wales" , - there they would be dumped in a blasted heath and asked to get back to HFD by Monday morning at the latest. A good source of income that was per train......

 

[mpthomson]

Better than that - a train of loco , 3 VDA wagons and an air braked brakevan would be requested to run from Hereford Goods on a Friday evening to a destination either in the North or the Far West (you can probably work out where) , loaded with trainee officers who had come from "somewhere in Wales" , - there they would be dumped in a blasted heath and asked to get back to HFD by Monday morning at the latest. A good source of income that was per train......

If they were really officers and somewhere from Wales then they were just standard infantry type 2Lts or Lts on their PCBC (Platoon Commander’s Battle Course), which is still based out of Brecon. SF selection doesn’t (and never did) have anywhere near enough people on it to justify a train, even if only 3 vans.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If they were really officers and somewhere from Wales then they were just standard infantry type 2Lts or Lts on their PCBC (Platoon Commander’s Battle Course), which is still based out of Brecon. SF selection doesn’t (and never did) have anywhere near enough people on it to justify a train, even if only 3 vans.

Well , the train ran for at least 2 years in my time - the only people allowed near to it were the train crew and a Trains Inspector .......(so cannot verify the loadings..)

 

[mpthomson]

PCBCs run all year and for every teeth arm very junior officer out of Sandhurst so could easily be for them. When was this in terms of year? I’ll do some asking!

 

[Darandio]

Yes they are still in use. And not just for the armed forces.

I believe the DWP (Department for Work and Pensions) are now the biggest user?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

PCBCs run all year and for every teeth arm very junior officer out of Sandhurst so could easily be for them. When was this in terms of year? I’ll do some asking!

Good while ago - 1983 or so.

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe the DWP (Department for Work and Pensions) are now the biggest user?

Not sure about that but it definitely sounds likely.

A lot of warrants are also used by the police and local authorities as well (eg: moving vulnerable women out of an area to a safer one in cases of domestic violence).

 

[Lucan]

I knew an old guy who worked at Bordon Camp. Bordon Station was at the end of a branch off the Aldershot-Farnham-Winchester line and was right by/in the camp and also provided a connection through to the LMR (Longmoor Military Railway !). He remembers that even while the branch was still open, must have been mid-50's, the camp administrators started issuing soldiers' tickets or travel warrants commencing from Farnham rather than Bordon, leaving them to claim the Bordon-Farnham ticket cost afterwards.

But the men tended to get the bus to Farnham as it was cheaper than the train so FTTB they were less out-of-pocket, even though the overall cost to the MoD was probably more than a rail ticket through from Bordon. When this practice was questioned, the admins said it was "orders from above". Beeching closed the line in 1966 - but no conspiracy there, surely?

 

[30907]

I knew an old guy who worked at Bordon Camp. Bordon Station was at the end of a branch off the Aldershot-Farnham-Winchester line and was right by/in the camp and also provided a connection through to the LMR (Longmoor Military Railway !). He remembers that even while the branch was still open, must have been mid-50's, the camp administrators started issuing soldiers' tickets or travel warrants commencing from Farnham rather than Bordon, leaving them to claim the Bordon-Farnham ticket cost afterwards.

But the men tended to get the bus to Farnham as it was cheaper than the train so FTTB they were less out-of-pocket, even though the overall cost to the MoD was probably more than a rail ticket through from Bordon. When this practice was questioned, the admins said it was "orders from above". Beeching closed the line in 1966 - but no conspiracy there, surely?

Seeing as the branch closed to passengers in 1957, I dont think you can blame Beeching - but I can believe the warrant traffic might have given an over optimistic impression of the branch's health....

 

[6Gman]

Not sure about that but it definitely sounds likely.

A lot of warrants are also used by the police and local authorities as well (eg: moving vulnerable women out of an area to a safer one in cases of domestic violence).

Mention of the police reminds me that it used to be common practice to move prisoners by train until quite recently.

At Wigan one night (in the 70s?) three blokes joined me in my compartment. One sat next to me; two opposite. Then I noticed the two guys seemed ... attached to each other.

On another occasion a group of us were on Crewe station and noticed somebody we were at school with, who had joined the police. Since he wasn't in uniform we walked up to him for a chat. He coughed and glanced down at his wrist. At which point we noticed the handcuffs.

 

[fowler9]

A good mate of mine is a motorman in the RFA and gets travel warrants to meet his ship by train, not sure who issues them as he is civilian. He prefers travelling by train to driving all the way to God know where. We get a lot of service personnel visiting our office due to the nature of our work and they all seem to use hire cars or some kind of pool car owned by the MOD.

 

[Steddenm]

I know of the following that still use rail warrants:

DWP
HM Prison Service
HM Scottish Prison Service
HM Courts Service
Police Authorities
National Probation Service
HM Armed Forces

 

[Lucan]

Beeching closed the [Bordon branch] line in 1966

Seeing as the branch closed to passengers in 1957, I dont think you can blame Beeching

Remained open for goods until 1966, but maybe Beeching was not resposible anyway.

but I can believe the warrant traffic might have given an over optimistic impression of the branch's health....

Why does it matter where the income comes from?

 

[Busaholic]

I know of the following that still use rail warrants:

DWP
HM Prison Service
HM Scottish Prison Service
HM Courts Service
Police Authorities
National Probation Service
HM Armed Forces

When I worked for the Probation Service, long before its extreme paring-down, I certainly used to get warrants for longer distance travel.

 

[30907]

Remained open for goods until 1966, but maybe Beeching was not resposible anyway.

Why does it matter where the income comes from?

It does and it doesn't.
First, the revenue at risk by closing the branch would be tiny, as the traffic would still be there (and travelling much the same distance - Bordon to Catterick, say, is about 1% more than from Farnham).
Second, and this is pure supposition, the traffic might have been quite irregular, apart from weekend leaves, and a railway doesn't thrive on irregular use.

 

[Highlandspring]

I know of the following that still use rail warrants:

DWP
HM Prison Service
HM Scottish Prison Service
HM Courts Service
Police Authorities
National Probation Service
HM Armed Forces

And Network Rail, almost unbelievably.

 

[StoneRoad]

When I was in the ROC, one option for attending the annual training camp was by using a rail warrant.

 

[Taunton]

THere was a general perception that the Reshaping of British Railways reports (aka Beeching) did not adequately show the revenue for the likes of branch lines to holiday resorts, because revenue for the tickets was attributed to the origin booking office where the holidaymakers were travelling from, where they had bought return tickets. The revenue models of those days were simplistic and just doing it by station cash taken was indeed as far as the Beeching (and BR) data of the time went, it all going into one overall pot anyway.

The implication is that if this approach is followed, a station at the end of a small obscure branch which nevertheless sold a lot of long distance tickets would conversely get a lot of revenue attributed to it.

I don't know. It is equally possible that Warrant traffic, which ultimately was charged to the Defence Ministry etc centrally, may have just had all the revenue taken by BR centrally as well. The booking office may have calculated and issued the ticket, but they didn't take any cash, and the Ministry would just pay in bulk once all the paperwork was sent through.

Not just the railway and not just Beeching days. There will be arguments as long as there are accountants about revenue attribution. The current railway Orcats scheme leads to a range of known nonsenses, even extending to running trains nobody travels in, in order for an individual train company to get more of the revenue. Airlines have long had arguments about connecting passengers (especially between different airlines) and who gets how much of the single ticket sold for the overall journey.

 

[Bensonby]

Not sure about that but it definitely sounds likely.

A lot of warrants are also used by the police and local authorities as well (eg: moving vulnerable women out of an area to a safer one in cases of domestic violence).

I'm Met Police and have had to purchase a ticket for a cross-country trip for the first time recently and the top of the form said something to the effect of "Officers should no longer use rail warrants" or something to that effect. It seems that the procedure is now to get some central office to book a ticket for you in advance (you tick to indicate whether you need flexibility) or you are to buy them yourselves and claim it back. It seems a shame: I remember being a young RAF cadet and feeling very important presenting my pink rail warrant to the ticket office at my local station to take me to some random airbase.

 

[The Ham]

If they were really officers and somewhere from Wales then they were just standard infantry type 2Lts or Lts on their PCBC (Platoon Commander’s Battle Course), which is still based out of Brecon. SF selection doesn’t (and never did) have anywhere near enough people on it to justify a train, even if only 3 vans.

Also, I thought that the SF base nearest that area was just on the English side of the boarder, as I've heard it joked that they're there to stop a Welsh invasion.