Armchair experts?

[edwin_m]

I think this armchair is very comfortable. Does that make me an armchair expert?

 

[yorkie]

I think this armchair is very comfortable. Does that make me an armchair expert?

I've been to a workplace where there are on-call staff who have a very comfortable armchair, for use while awaiting a call-out. The people who get to sit in that armchair are absolute experts in their field

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

One thing to keep in mind, the mainland national railway network in Britain (and of course, it's not only Britain) includes people from various departments / companies / organisations / functions / disciplines etc. each with their own skills and knowledge. Not all of which is easily transferable from life outside the railway or even within different parts of the railway.

Just look at the range of different roles:
Signaller - mechanical signal box / or upgraded signal box, maybe with some / all electrical signalling
Signaller - PSB
Signaller - Signalling Centre / ROC
Crossing Keeper
Driver (various different traction)
Guard (and all the other job names)
Platform / Dispatch Staff
Gateline Staff
Ticket Office staff
Shunter
MOM
P.Way
Off Track
Machine operator
S&T
Telecoms
Fitter
Controller
Electrician (both "domestic" and E&P - Electrical & Plant)
Plus many more...

And within the above groups, there are specialist roles as well.

As an example, an electrician may join the S&T (signalling and Telecom) "department" on Network Rail thinking that they already know how to read electrical schematic circuit diagrams. But of course, the railway has it's own standards so it's not that simple, they have to learn both the nomenclature, the different symbols that are used and then the principles used. Plus, over time, the standards and "normal practice" may change. And locals may use different local names for things or meanings in different parts of the country...

This is an excellent point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

Having an opinion is one thing, instructing (on the basis of incomplete knowledge) those dealing with an incident what they should be doing is another!

True, though I strongly suspect the first post in this thread is relating to a suggestion (rather than an instruction), which I would say is absolutely fine to post - if posted in the right area - but the problem I believe is that it wasn't posted in the right place for suggestions/proposals/ideas/speculation, and was wrongly posted in the thread discussing the actual incident itself.

However, the best way to handle any such concerns is through the report button; the issue can then be resolved more promptly.

 

[Gloster]

I have found that there are many people who are experts in some areas of the railway, but most do not have the wider range of knowledge that many railwaymen, particularly in some grades, have acquired.

In descending the areas that many enthusiasts know about are:

Locomotives and other Traction
Rolling Stock
Railway History
Fixed Installations including buildings
Signalling
Operating Practices
Rules & Regulations

I would have to checked my facts and be very certain about them before I challenged most people about a point concerning locomotives. However, even though it is nearly forty years since I left the railway and I know attitudes have changed, my varied carrer during nine years on it gave me a thorough grounding and interest in operating practices and rules. I have maintained this interest ever since and, luckily, had better opportunités than most to do so.

 

[Edsmith]

People just don't like others (informed or not) commenting on "their area", particularly if it exposes incompetence, hence the use of the derogatory term "armchair expert".

Exactly that, I would imagine a lot of railway staff have themselves been 'armchair experts' on other subjects.

 

[snookertam]

I've been to a workplace where there are on-call staff who have a very comfortable armchair, for use while awaiting a call-out. The people who get to sit in that armchair are absolute experts in their field

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==


This is an excellent point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==


True, though I strongly suspect the first post in this thread is relating to a suggestion (rather than an instruction), which I would say is absolutely fine to post - if posted in the right area - but the problem I believe is that it wasn't posted in the right place for suggestions/proposals/ideas/speculation, and was wrongly posted in the thread discussing the actual incident itself.

However, the best way to handle any such concerns is through the report button; the issue can then be resolved more promptly.

The catalyst was a post along the lines of ‘why didn’t they do…..?’, implying that the people on the ground didn’t know what they were doing. Those people will have weighed up all the options and chosen the appropriate one, which is always the answer to such questions. I doesn’t stop them coming though, repeatedly, both externally and also internally within the industry.

The pattern is people who are quite distant from the incident in question, who act as if they have all the facts and info at their disposal, then completely discount those that do. They display a level of confidence and assurance, combined with a complete lack of self awareness, that would be dangerous were those people to have any actual power to influence anything.

I get that this is a forum and people will ask questions and I appreciate that my post might have been a little unfair in that respect, but I’ve seen and heard this stuff so often now, both from within the railway and from bystanders, that it begins to grate.

As I said, it’s more than just queries or suggestions, but outright dismissal of the expertise of those involved in dealing with major incidents.

 

[Annetts key]

The catalyst was a post along the lines of ‘why didn’t they do…..?’, implying that the people on the ground didn’t know what they were doing. Those people will have weighed up all the options and chosen the appropriate one, which is always the answer to such questions. I doesn’t stop them coming though, repeatedly, both externally and also internally within the industry.

The pattern is people who are quite distant from the incident in question, who act as if they have all the facts and info at their disposal, then completely discount those that do. They display a level of confidence and assurance, combined with a complete lack of self awareness, that would be dangerous were those people to have any actual power to influence anything.

I get that this is a forum and people will ask questions and I appreciate that my post might have been a little unfair in that respect, but I’ve seen and heard this stuff so often now, both from within the railway and from bystanders, that it begins to grate.

As I said, it’s more than just queries or suggestions, but outright dismissal of the expertise of those involved in dealing with major incidents.

But, that's nothing new. In my job (in the railway), it was far from unknown for people within the industry who did not have all the information or knowledge to question what or why I dismissed their "suggestions". Sometimes I would not do what they wanted because it either bent or broke the rules, was bad practice or was impractical.

Thankfully, for the most part, my line manager backed me up.

There are reasons for why some things are not done or they are done a certain way. Not all the railway is against change or against learning from other industries, despite the reputation. I have seen plenty of changes over the years. Some good, some not so good.

 

[AlterEgo]

The catalyst was a post along the lines of ‘why didn’t they do…..?’, implying that the people on the ground didn’t know what they were doing.

There is no such implication. Sometimes people would just like to know why something has happened, or not happened - quite often there is additional context they are not privy to (there is actually a report of a person on the line / platform 2 is out of use due to dodgy paving at the moment so that move isn't possible / it isn't possible to resource another crew at this location).

The idea that someone asking a question about how something is being handled is an implication that the people handling it are incompetent is exactly the sort of siege mentality I was on about earlier.

Those people will have weighed up all the options and chosen the appropriate one, which is always the answer to such questions.

Even then, sometimes the wrong choice is made, and the railway can be slow to learn from it. See Euston Scrum upthread. This went on for at least fifteen years until the obvious solution was implemented.

 

[daveo]

mods note - split from this thread:

AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

Reports coming in of a derailed train near Shap Summit up Goods loop. Looking like 1R22 0428 from GLC to EUS https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/penrith-20251103/ A derailed train between Penrith and Oxenholme means all lines are blocked. Trains running between Carlisle and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

Not just railway. try being a football referee!

 

[Falcon1200]

Not just railway. try being a football referee!

We used to joke at work that the two jobs where everyone not doing them knew better than those doing them were indeed running a railway and refereeing a football match!

 

[Bald Rick]

I think this armchair is very comfortable. Does that make me an armchair expert?

Comfort is a matter of opinion, not expertise

The people who get to sit in that armchair are absolute experts in their field

If I put an armchair in my large* garden, and sit in it, that makes me an armchair expert in my field

*it’s not large, but the joke wouldn’t work without it

 

[brad465]

If I put an armchair in my large* garden, and sit in it, that makes me an armchair expert in my field

*it’s not large, but the joke wouldn’t work without it

You wouldn't have to do that, chances are an old armchair has been fly-tipped in a field somewhere.

 

[Harpo]

I find that railway ops knowledge on forums nowadays vastly exceeds enthusiast levels of the past but an over-arching contentious topic is safety.

Many in the industry talk of ‘holding the go-to-jail card’ on safety and I’ve been there. Being interviewed under caution (twice-no convictions-honest) is intimidating and sobering.

Convincing armchair experts on safety issues is challenging especially under a barrage of simplistic & well-meaning ‘the railway can just….’. (See the recent Worcester depot shunt issues.)

So long as experienced people continue to share the realities on here, those prepared to learn from their ‘armchairs’ will benefit.

 

[Broucek]

I think "below the line" comments on news websites (which are good for advertising revenues) have made this worse. "Tell us what you think!" is the message and often what's there is at best nonsense and at worse toxic. (There are exceptions - some FT articles get well-informed responses in technical areas.)

What I find interesting is the tone of comments. I often read things like "Surely [insert simplistic suggestion] would fix this" rather than "Can someone help me understand why [my simplistic suggestion] doesn't work?"

 

[The Pelican]

For those wanting a blog- like this forum and London Reconnections- with well informed and interesting commentators, can I suggest the left-leaning politics and political philosophy group blog "Crooked Timber?" The arguments on that website, like those on London Reconnections, have always been very interesting, because you often see both sides argued reasonably well.

Crooked Timber — Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made