Armchair experts?

[snookertam]

mods note - split from this thread:

AWC Derailment at Shap Summit 03/11/25

Reports coming in of a derailed train near Shap Summit up Goods loop. Looking like 1R22 0428 from GLC to EUS https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service-disruptions/penrith-20251103/ A derailed train between Penrith and Oxenholme means all lines are blocked. Trains running between Carlisle and...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

 

[brad465]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

I believe a term that can be applied here is "sidewalk superintendent" in the same class as "backseat driver".

 

[DelW]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

There's a very old saying along the lines of "nothing is difficult to someone who doesn't have to do it themselves"

 

[aaronspence]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

You get it in airplane forums too when theres an incident, Armchair investigators

 

[snookertam]

There's a very old saying along the lines of "nothing is difficult to someone who doesn't have to do it themselves"

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

 

[357]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

Are you saying you wouldn't have heroically steered the train back onto the rails to avoid delaying the passengers?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you saying you wouldn't have heroically steered the train back onto the rails to avoid delaying the passengers?

Personally I'd have used my telekinetic powers to have removed the debris from the track, not sure why anyone else wouldn't have done the same to be honest?

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Are you saying you wouldn't have heroically steered the train back onto the rails to avoid delaying the passengers?

Or get the passengers to help lift it back onto the tracks.

 

[chrisjo]

Or get the passengers to help lift it back onto the tracks.

Not allowed here any more, apparently. I blame Maggie Thatcher / Kier Starmer / Tommy Robinson (delete at random).

 

[D6130]

A bit like Richard Branson telling the press at the site of the Grayrigg derailment that his driver had heroically remained at the controls to save the lives of more passengers.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

Not allowed here any more, apparently. I blame Maggie Thatcher / Kier Starmer / Tommy Robinson (delete at random).

Things will be different when we leave ECHR/NATO/TESCO CLUB CARD SCHEME.

It isn't just the railway of course where you get enthusiastic advice on how to do your job.

 

[MontyP]

Isn't the whole point of a forum like this to allow people to share all manner of opinions? Or are only those experts who work in the industry allowed to express an opinion?

 

[dosxuk]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved?

Not by a long way. I'd go as far as to say it happens with every type of incident, the people furthest away have the clearest idea of what should be happening - or so they believe.

 

[D6130]

Isn't the whole point of a forum like this to allow people to share all manner of opinions? Or are only those experts who work in the industry allowed to express an opinion?

Exactly....and then for those who work/worked in the industry to put them right!

 

[MotCO]

There's a very old saying along the lines of "nothing is difficult to someone who doesn't have to do it themselves"

Isn't that one of Parkinson's Laws?

Edit: Apparently it was by someone called AH Weiler.

 

[Annetts key]

I honestly don't know why the driver didn’t do what I would have done, and that’s slamming it into reverse so as to avoid the collision...



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2025 ==

Exactly....and then for those who work/worked in the industry to put them right!

Sorry, you're incorrect. As a remote backseat armchair commander, I'll correct you:
"and then for those who work/worked in the industry to correct them..."

 

[snookertam]

Isn't the whole point of a forum like this to allow people to share all manner of opinions? Or are only those experts who work in the industry allowed to express an opinion?

It’s one thing to express an opinion, but when people are completely dismissive of the actions of those involved, lacking any self awareness of how little they know about the full circumstances, that’s when it sticks in the craw.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Exactly....and then for those who work/worked in the industry to put them right!

Whilst those same people who work/worked in the rail industry pontificate about things in other walks of life and then themselves get put right

 

[notverydeep]

To be fair to the armchair commentators from outside of the industry, in my experience industry depots and offices are every bit as likely to generate plenty speculation and 'unusual' theories in the absence of real information...

It is also the case that in a high proportion of rail accidents, any reasonably informed observe can see the 'what happened' from a few pictures and bits of background information, even if they don't have any of the data and first hand accounts that will correctly answer the 'why'...

 

[D6130]

Whilst those same people who work/worked in the rail industry pontificate about things in other walks of life and then themselves get put right

Quite!

 

[muz379]

Is it a unique railway thing where bystanders and people observing events are so convinced that they know better than the people involved? Happens a lot among railway staff as well.

I don't think it is unique to the railways , hear it all the time with road accidents when roads are closed for ages as well following something like a fatal accident when the police have to establish all the facts.

Only as annoying as the hindsight merchants as well though who come along after an incident when more information is known and then profess that they would have reacted differently.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I had a name for uninformed people who kept trying to tell me how to fulfil my roles despite their having had no training or experience in those areas, management.

 

[Acey]

As someone who spent 38 years working on the railway as a porter (railman ) occasional ticket office clerk ,guard .driver and finally shunter, I have learnt more about the workings of the railway from those folk on here who have never been employed by any train operator ,so in my opinion you don't need railway experience to know what you're talking about !

 

[AlterEgo]

As someone who spent 38 years working on the railway as a porter (railman ) occasional ticket office clerk ,guard .driver and finally shunter, I have learnt more about the workings of the railway from those folk on here who have never been employed by any train operator ,so in my opinion you don't need railway experience to know what you're talking about !

Quite.

Some good ideas can come from outside the industry, which is by nature insular and has a siege mentality. Questioning how things are done is not tolerated.

See how many people in the industry doubled down for years on Euston's refusal to do anything about how it was announcing trains to avoid the Euston scrum. Lo and behold years later they did start staggering and announcing trains earlier to avoid the panic, something any lay person would have found an obvious solution. It is something people told the railway they should be doing for years. There are loads of examples.of changes like this the railway has put off doing for many years.

Most notable is the reaction from some people in the industry speaking well beyond their expertise about areas of operations which they are not subject matter experts in, but couch their opinions in appeal to authority.

This isn't really a dig or a comment on this forum - most staff here are extremely reasonable and open minded! - but my years inside the industry and outside of it mean I definitely recognise the siege mentality that comes with working on the front line of the railway. I don't think it is very healthy and it is one of the aspects of the industry I enjoy the least.

 

[Mag_seven]

People just don't like others (informed or not) commenting on "their area", particularly if it exposes incompetence, hence the use of the derogatory term "armchair expert".

 

[styles]

It's not unique to the railways.

I sometimes watch videos of DVSA approved driving instructors, or DVSA examiners, and you'll get people in the comments directly contradicting what the instructor/examiner has said. You even see them on videos by people like Reg Local, who is an advanced driving examiner and used to train police in advanced driving and pursuit driving. It's not to say such experts can never be wrong, but what's more likely?

 

[Falcon1200]

Isn't the whole point of a forum like this to allow people to share all manner of opinions?

Having an opinion is one thing, instructing (on the basis of incomplete knowledge) those dealing with an incident what they should be doing is another!

so in my opinion you don't need railway experience to know what you're talking about !

Interesting viewpoint but different from my experience; Way back in 1994, as part of the privatisation process, my Control Office was split between Railtrack and TOC, requiring additional staff to be appointed. Many of those had dealt with Control in their previous jobs but feely admitted that they had no real idea what we did before they joined us. Which applied to me too, when I first entered Control; Despite being a lifelong enthusiast, and having taken BR Correspondence courses, I realised on Day 1 that I knew very little about railway operating. Thankfully my colleagues took the time to train newbies.

 

[Acey]

Having an opinion is one thing, instructing (on the basis of incomplete knowledge) those dealing with an incident what they should be doing is another!



Interesting viewpoint but different from my experience; Way back in 1994, as part of the privatisation process, my Control Office was split between Railtrack and TOC, requiring additional staff to be appointed. Many of those had dealt with Control in their previous jobs but feely admitted that they had no real idea what we did before they joined us. Which applied to me too, when I first entered Control; Despite being a lifelong enthusiast, and having taken BR Correspondence courses, I realised on Day 1 that I knew very little about railway operating. Thankfully my colleagues took the time to train newbies.

Of course that's also true in many cases, when I joined the railway back in 1974, I had zero interest in trains or railways at all. I just needed employment but found myself enjoying the work.

In all those years, I can't say I ever had a real interest in the organisation; I used to see the enthusiasts on the end of platform six at London Bridge and wonder what the appeal was!

Talking to one or two, I soon realised most knew far more about the units I was driving than I did and that is what I find now, folk who are enthusiastic about a pastime or are usually more knowledgeable than those like me to whom it's just a job

A lot of the members on this forum are pretty clued-up in many aspects (no pun) of the industry and I would always bow to their knowledge, sure I've had many real life experiences such as derailments, collisions, protection using detonators, nasty instances as well as things like using a short-circuiting bar (oo er) and changing ribbon shoe fuses on EPB stock etc, but still feel a complete numpty reading some of the posts on here.

It's true to say I am also more interested now I'm retired and away from it all !

 

[Cowley]

I tend to find that it’s better to err on the side of caution if you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

I tend to ask the question in front of the question that I really want to ask before committing and going all in on any kind of opinion, because I know that someone on here will know the answers.

I must admit that I’m still eternally grateful to those on here that know what they’re actually talking about!

 

[Annetts key]

One thing to keep in mind, the mainland national railway network in Britain (and of course, it's not only Britain) includes people from various departments / companies / organisations / functions / disciplines etc. each with their own skills and knowledge. Not all of which is easily transferable from life outside the railway or even within different parts of the railway.

Just look at the range of different roles:
Signaller - mechanical signal box / or upgraded signal box, maybe with some / all electrical signalling
Signaller - PSB
Signaller - Signalling Centre / ROC
Crossing Keeper
Driver (various different traction)
Guard (and all the other job names)
Platform / Dispatch Staff
Gateline Staff
Ticket Office staff
Shunter
MOM
P.Way
Off Track
Machine operator
S&T
Telecoms
Fitter
Controller
Electrician (both "domestic" and E&P - Electrical & Plant)
Plus many more...

And within the above groups, there are specialist roles as well.

As an example, an electrician may join the S&T (signalling and Telecom) "department" on Network Rail thinking that they already know how to read electrical schematic circuit diagrams. But of course, the railway has it's own standards so it's not that simple, they have to learn both the nomenclature, the different symbols that are used and then the principles used. Plus, over time, the standards and "normal practice" may change. And locals may use different local names for things or meanings in different parts of the country...