Are train dispatchers essential?

[Shrop]

I don’t quite understand what point you’re making here. I’m certainly not trying “prove you wrong”, just to better understand the context of the question you’ve chosen to ask, in order to aid discussion.

Nobody is paid to contribute anything here, but thankfully participation is entirely voluntary.

I think the context of my question has been explained in my earlier posts on this thread, but if there's anything that isn't clear, let me know and I'll try to clarify. (Note that I won't have a great deal of spare time this afternoon though).
Just to clarify in respect of your earlier question whether our train was already late at Victoria, this was actually the starting point for this train. I had a spare couple of minutes so here is the screenshot from Realtimetrains showing our train, the 10.57 to Leeds. As you can see, at 10.57 there weren't four other trains in the station.

 

[43066]

I think the context of my question has been explained in my earlier posts on this thread, but if there's anything that isn't clear, let me know and I'll try to clarify. (Note that I won't have a great deal of spare time this afternoon though).
Just to clarify in respect of your earlier question whether our train was already late at Victoria, this was actually the starting point for this train. I had a spare couple of minutes so here is the screenshot from Realtimetrains showing our train, the 10.57 to Leeds. As you can see, at 10.57 there weren't four other trains in the station.

The screenshot you’ve posted shows three other departures (from platforms 5, 3 and 4) within a minute or so of 1057 (one isn’t visible on the screenshot but appears on RTT), so there were certainly other trains in the station and departing around that time. Then there was a further, more or less on time, departure a minute or so before your train departed, 11 late, at 1108.

From RTT I can also see that your train was sitting in the platform well in advance of departure, and you’ve stated that the traincrew were present.

Were you specifically told that the delay was because of no dispatchers being available? It’s not unknown for the decision to be taken to dispatch trains in a particular order, or to hold trains for various reasons. You also mentioned that your train had the signal for departure - it would also be unusual for a train to be “belled out” to the signaller if there was nobody to dispatch it (it can happen in error).

 

[GWVillager]

If it's considered safe enough to dispatch without a dispatcher, then the dispatchers should be removed because it's an unnecessary cost, as WMT have done at most stations.

On this, WMT have probably gone too far, anyway. I didn't use to be as appreciative of dispatchers until seeing Worcester Forgate Street without them, which is really quite hair-raising!

 

[74A]

To answer your question there is no rule book requirement to have despatch staff.

Each station will have a method of work. Nearly all stations allow for driver/guard self despatch these days However there are a few stations where they are still required.

These are usually at large stations. Particularly at station where trains start their journey and there will be a TRTS (Train Ready To Start) button that needs to be pressed to let the signaller know the train is ready to leave.

 

[Shrop]

The screenshot you’ve posted shows three other departures (from platforms 5, 3 and 4) within a minute or so of 1057 (one isn’t visible on the screenshot but appears on RTT), so there were certainly other trains in the station and departing around that time. Then there was a further more or less on time departure a minute or so before your train departed, 11 late, at 1108.

From RTT I can also see that your train was sitting in the platform well in advance of departure, and you’ve stated that the traincrew were present.

Were you specifically told that the delay was because of no dispatchers being available? It’s not unknown for the decision to be taken to dispatch trains in a particular order, or to hold trains for various reasons. You also mentioned that your train had the signal for departure - it would also be unusual for a train to be “belled out” to the signaller if there was nobody to dispatch it (it can happen in error).

You're disputing details, which is unnecessary sidetracking. If you want to do that then platform 5 was empty throughout, from 10.57 until we left at 11.08, which isn't how you portrayed it. Platform 3 was empty at our departure time, as was platform 4, which again differs from how you portrayed it. Also, I've seen many occasions when the times stated by RTT were inaccurate.

I don't know everything about the why's and wherefore's of rail operations, I've said many times on this forum that I'm no rail expert. I can only say what I see and hear, which included the announcement that we were awaiting a dispatcher. Please could you recourse to my suggestions about possible ways to reduce train delays.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

At London terminals I've even seen dispatchers standing right next to the driver's door, which makes you wonder if British drivers get bolted to the seat when they start their duty.

At many terminal stations in Sussex, you have a dispatcher standing right beside the driver's door. He gets the "tip" from another dispatcher further down the platform, such as on a curved platform or where there is no easy line of sight

 

[Horizon22]

Dispatchers are particularly helpful at terminus stations, for a variety of factors:

a) Multiple different types of train stock, with differing train lengths and differing dispatch methods for different companies
b) Crowding levels / passengers numbers at the station which would require additional staff presence to prevent incidents
c) Infrastructure constraints such as platform curvature (common at city terminals) and signal locations
d) Where there are delays/alterations, dispatch staff manually TRTS ("train ready to start") trains which advises the signaller which trains are fully crewed so routes aren't given for stock not ready to depart.
e) Supporting with additional tasks (detatch / attach, clearing trains for ECS moves etc.).
e) Providing additional customer service on platforms and around station as required.

There's probably more factors, but these are what I can think of right now.

 

[Shrop]

Perhaps I should clarify. My apologies if my title to this thread was misleading, I changed it in a hurry whilst on a train, in response to a request to do so.
I never meant to suggest that train dispatchers weren't necessary at all, I only wondered whether it might be possible that in the event of none being available, then after a certain time the rules might permit the train manager to authorise departure. I fully appreciate the value of dispatchers, that wasn't my point, I was just hoping to find a way that delays could be reduced. Again, my apologies for any bad wording.

 

[railfan99]

British risk assessments around the closure of doors and dispatch seem to be unbelievably cautious in comparison to the rest of Europe.

As far as I know the only place in Germany where platform dispatchers are employed is Hamburg, which is very crowded and on a sharp curve. Everywhere else, even Cologne, Berlin or Munich all dispatch is done by the train crew.

Yes, true for much of the rest of the world as well.

In Melbourne, we've had DOO for 35 years on the extensive suburban train network.

 

[12LDA28C]

In Melbourne, we've had DOO for 35 years on the extensive suburban train network.

As we have in the UK on many routes. However certain locations even on DOO routes still feature dispatchers.

 

[Tester]

As we have in the UK on many routes. However certain locations even on DOO routes still feature dispatchers.

In Melbourne drivers do it all, including loading and unloading disabled passengers - works well.

(.....awaits 'can't be done' incoming flak )

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

In Melbourne drivers do it all, including loading and unloading disabled passengers - works well.

(.....awaits 'can't be done' incoming flak )

Of course it can be done when, as in Melbourne, the suburban network uses a highly standardised fleet through highly standardised stations with very few curves and near level boarding. And also that longer distance traffic is almost completely segregated. Such a nirvana doesn't really exist here nor is there the political will to make it happen!

 

[shredder1]

Presently sitting at Manchester Victoria and 10 minutes late, so far. Train ready, driver ready, train manager ready, signal ready, the only reason we can't go is because there is no train dispatcher. Hmm ...

I dont see them much in Europe.

 

[skyhigh]

Presently sitting at Manchester Victoria and 10 minutes late, so far. Train ready, driver ready, train manager ready, signal ready, the only reason we can't go is because there is no train dispatcher. Hmm ...

Either someone lied to you or you've just made an assumption that you were delayed due to lack of dispatcher.

At Manchester Victoria the signal never clears for the train you were on until the dispatcher operates the Train Ready To Start button. So if you had a proceed aspect, there will have been a dispatcher present.

No dispatcher is going to bell out on platform 1 at Victoria and wander off somewhere else for the simple reason that 99% of the time the Leeds train is routed onto the Up Fast which means crossing every line and when the signal is cleared nothing else can get into or out of the East end of the station.

 

[Magdalia]

As we have in the UK on many routes. However certain locations even on DOO routes still feature dispatchers.

Next year Great Northern outer suburban will have been DOO for 40 years. That started with drivers having to use fixed cameras or mirrors at most stations, on board cameras are only a recent development with classes 387 and 700.

Nevertheless, there are various stations that have gone back from self despatch to platform despatch. Hitchin is a good example.

 

[amahy]

I don’t believe they are essential. Went to Norway a couple of weeks ago, and no dispatchers in sight. Not even at Oslo Central, Norway’s biggest train station. I do believe they are good for the railway though, as they are an extra pair of eyes in case something goes wrong. They also act as customer assistance staff, so there’s no harm in having them (apart from the cost, which is quite minor).

 

[43066]

Either someone lied to you or you've just made an assumption that you were delayed due to lack of dispatcher.

At Manchester Victoria the signal never clears for the train you were on until the dispatcher operates the Train Ready To Start button. So if you had a proceed aspect, there will have been a dispatcher present.

No dispatcher is going to bell out on platform 1 at Victoria and wander off somewhere else for the simple reason that 99% of the time the Leeds train is routed onto the Up Fast which means crossing every line and when the signal is cleared nothing else can get into or out of the East end of the station.

Thanks for confirming - that was my thinking earlier.

I don’t believe they are essential. Went to Norway a couple of weeks ago, and no dispatchers in sight. Not even at Oslo Central, Norway’s biggest train station. I do believe they are good for the railway though, as they are an extra pair of eyes in case something goes wrong. They also act as customer assistance staff, so there’s no harm in having them (apart from the cost, which is quite minor).

As has already been pointed out they are essential where they’re deemed to be required - and they certainly aren’t just “an extra pair of eyes in case something goes wrong”. At my London terminal (along with every other London terminal apart from Waterloo AIUI) it is the dispatcher who conducts the train safety check and gives the driver RA after the guard has boarded and closed their local door. The traincrew cannot just decide to leave without the dispatcher being involved to save a few minutes, and if they did so they’d be taken off and med screened.

What happens in Norway, Melbourne etc. really has no bearing on the matter, and such comparisons rarely stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Harpo]

What happens in Norway, Melbourne etc. really has no bearing on the matter, and such comparisons rarely stand up to scrutiny.

Quite. We have the Health & Safety At Work Act which drives everything. It places all responsibility on the duty holder. Very different.

 

[railfan99]

What happens in Norway, Melbourne etc. really has no bearing on the matter, and such comparisons rarely stand up to scrutiny.

So UK rail operators know everything and cannot learn from best overseas practice, even if it would save the railway money without compromising safety?

An insular view.

 

[43066]

So UK rail operators know everything and cannot learn from best overseas practice, even if it would save the railway money without compromising safety?

An insular view.

Or maybe the UK operators know plenty about operating the railway in the UK? As already pointed out the foreign systems operate under different legal frameworks, with different liabilities and tolerances for risk, so the comparisons simply aren’t relevant. Not an insular view, just reality.

The UK operates one of Europe’s safest and most intensively used railways, dealing with vastly more people and far longer trains than the Melbourne network. Hence what works on the Melbourne suburban metro isn’t relevant to why dispatchers are considered necessary at London terminals.

I also understood this thread to be the discussing the requirement for dispatchers on the UK railway network So I struggle to see the relevance of discussing what happens in Australia and Norway.

 

[12LDA28C]

So UK rail operators know everything and cannot learn from best overseas practice, even if it would save the railway money without compromising safety?

An insular view.

I'm sure you've conducted extensive research here in the UK and have an exhaustive list of incidents, statistics, risk assessments and so on to back up your assertion that it would not compromise safety, yes?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I don’t believe they are essential. Went to Norway a couple of weeks ago, and no dispatchers in sight. Not even at Oslo Central, Norway’s biggest train station. I do believe they are good for the railway though, as they are an extra pair of eyes in case something goes wrong. They also act as customer assistance staff, so there’s no harm in having them (apart from the cost, which is quite minor).

We were boarding a train Norway once when, just as I was climbing up it started to move. My friend on the platform behind me panicked but I managed to drag him aboard before the train gained too much speed. We spent the journey recovering our composure! That was 1971.

 

[al78]

Not as inconvenient as somebody being injured because "the rules" were not followed, for example here:

Rail Accident Report: Person trapped in doors and pulled along platform at Kings Cross station, London - 10 October 2011 :: The Railways Archive

Archive of UK railways documents

www.railwaysarchive.co.uk

The form of dispatch will be informed by a risk assessment regularly reviewed.

Is there no technology that can detect when something is trapped in the doors and prevent the train from moving until the object/person's limb is released? Lift doors will reopen if someone puts their hand between them, and is a common tactic for preventing the doors closing and the lift moving if someone is about to try and board it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there no technology that can detect when something is trapped in the doors and prevent the train from moving until the object/person's limb is released? Lift doors will reopen if someone puts their hand between them, and is a common tactic for preventing the doors closing and the lift moving if someone is about to try and board it.

There is, but it's usually not good enough to detect something really thin like a bag strap or jacket tail without being excessively sensitive and thus falsely activating all the time. It isn't on lifts either, typically those would end up being torn off if caught in a lift door - the double door prevents you being dragged anywhere.

 

[43066]

Is there no technology that can detect when something is trapped in the doors and prevent the train from moving until the object/person's limb is released? Lift doors will reopen if someone puts their hand between them, and is a common tactic for preventing the doors closing and the lift moving if someone is about to try and board it.

Not in a way that can reliably applied to train doors. If they were as sensitive as lift doors you’d have near constant delays due to door issues.

Hence it’s entirely possible for bag straps, hands etc. to be trapped, and for the driver to get interlock and move the train. This is why a visual check prior to departure is so essential. At busy locations that is still generally best done by dispatcher, or potentially several dispatchers along the length of the train.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Thanks, yes that's understandable for long trains but this was only a 4 coach DMU. At Ludlow for example, they manage a Class 67 plus 5 coaches on quite a curve, and I've not seen any dispatchers employed there? It did make me wonder what actually dictated the reason for the dispatcher being so essential?

Remember (as a dispatcher myself at a station with very curved platforms) it's not just about the length/consist of a train or platforms, it's also essential for crowd management etc.

 

[Towers]

So UK rail operators know everything and cannot learn from best overseas practice, even if it would save the railway money without compromising safety?

An insular view.

There is little point in making arbitary comparisons with other systems/countries/continents. In India they deem it perfectly fine to cling to the outside of a moving train, maybe we should introduce that here as Crosscountry services are always rammed? In the USA they have appallingly badly designed level crossings and seem to be quite okay with trains hitting road vehicles on a frequent basis - perhaps we need to drop our standards in the UK and just let people take their chances? Etc etc.

London Underground routinely allow trains to accelerate rapidly out of packed platforms with people inches away, or less, from the side of the train. They also close doors on crowds of boarding passengers as a matter of course. If you dispatched a mainline train in that manner, even from the same station upstairs, you’d end up in court. Go figure. It is what it is, nobody in the railway is overstaffing trains or stations for a laugh, if a member of staff is there it’ll be because they’re required.

 

[Meerkat]

If platform staff are not available where is the risk in the guard shutting the doors then walking along to prove nothing is trapped then shutting their own door and giving the driver the ok with a clear verbal instruction? Someone could push the door buttons but they can do that under any system of dispatch, and they can’t get trapped ithe doors are locked.

 

[43066]

If platform staff are not available where is the risk in the guard shutting the doors then walking along to prove nothing is trapped then shutting their own door and giving the driver the ok with a clear verbal instruction? Someone could push the door buttons but they can do that under any system of dispatch, and they can’t get trapped ithe doors are locked.

Because on a curved/busy platform they might be unable to see the length of the train, and someone might be leaning on the train or have fallen down the gap. Someone leaning on the train with doors locked was exactly how the fatality arose at James Street. How does a guard give a “clear verbal instruction” from the rear of a five or ten car train?

All this effort looking for workarounds (that don’t actually work) - the solution is to ensure dispatchers are available. And they almost always are… Including in the OP’s case as somebody had pressed the TRTS, suggesting that a dispatcher was present, and that the delay was caused by something else.

 

[12LDA28C]

If platform staff are not available where is the risk in the guard shutting the doors then walking along to prove nothing is trapped then shutting their own door and giving the driver the ok with a clear verbal instruction? Someone could push the door buttons but they can do that under any system of dispatch, and they can’t get trapped ithe doors are locked.

Because if the method of dispatch at a specific location has been agreed as being by dispatcher then that process needs to be followed. A dispatcher needs to monitor not only the platform/train interface as the doors are closed and the train begins to move, but also the passage of the train along the full length of the platform until it is no longer in the station. Clearly this cannot be done from within the train.