Are ticket barriers beneficial?

[Bletchleyite]

It was certainly done up to two or three years ago by squads of plain-clothes RPIs who would join an S-Bahn vehicle at all doors, wait for the train to move, then bring out their ID and start a check, processing all passengers before the next stop, when they would get off and move to another vehicle. It worked very well indeed.

I remember having fun with those inspectors in Hamburg. They boarded, I was dozing and nearly missed my stop and ran off quickly. One followed me. He looked a muppet standing on the platform as the train pulled away with his colleagues on board as I happily produced a valid ticket.
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A colleague went to Germany as the equivelant of an RPI. They operate a zero tolerance policy to irregularities, have MUCH larger on the spot fines/charges, and are much more visible. He described it as Revenue Protection as it should be done.

I think the phrase that covers it is "Be careful what you wish for"...

Indeed. About £100 penalty on SBB with no discretion whatsoever possible on regional services - not even for a faulty ticket machine. On the one occasion I forgot and realised just as the doors closed, it was a nerve-racking journey to the next stop where I could alight and correct the error.

Personally I'd rather have a barrier that stopped me on the rare occasion I forgot[1] to buy a ticket, and a more reasonable Penalty Fare in case I did get through.

[1] As I sometimes have a season ticket and sometimes not, that's not an entirely unprobable occurrence, and it has indeed happened once or twice.
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Why? The stations are there for the travelling public and not for someone wanting to take pictures whilst doing silly things with their arms to encourage the driver to use the horn.

I don't mind enthusiasts being on the station provided they are not in the way (as they indeed usually are not), but I do think they should purchase a valid ticket as otherwise that's a hole in the defence against ticketless travel. Perhaps an option at staffed stations would be for a platform ticket to be issued against a deposit of whatever the current PF is (£20) plus a small fee for admin e.g. £1, with it necessary to go and report back to the ticket office every 1-2 hours (perhaps) to ensure travel does not occur, failure to do so meaning forfeit of the deposit?

 

[Antman]

It seems pretty easy to tailgate through most barriers. I've seen a lot of it in the London area, and not once have I seen barrier staff challenge the tailgater.

I had a personal instance of a valid ticket being rejected today - barriers at Westcliff did not accept a Southend Central to West Ham ticket for entry. Since Southend is only one stop away from Westcliff it seems a pretty obvious break of journey to programme in. Not only that it took a while for staff to let me through, resulting in me almost missing a train.

So have I seen a lot of tailgating in the London area and it usually happens in the blink of an eye so I think it's unlikely that barrier staff would spot it particularly at busy times.

 

[trivran]

I don't mind enthusiasts being on the station provided they are not in the way (as they indeed usually are not), but I do think they should purchase a valid ticket as otherwise that's a hole in the defence against ticketless travel. Perhaps an option at staffed stations would be for a platform ticket to be issued against a deposit of whatever the current PF is (£20) plus a small fee for admin e.g. £1, with it necessary to go and report back to the ticket office every 1-2 hours (perhaps) to ensure travel does not occur, failure to do so meaning forfeit of the deposit?

Is that really necessary? Are platform tickets really used that often (or indeed ever) as a key to ticketless travel?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that really necessary? Are platform tickets really used that often (or indeed ever) as a key to ticketless travel?

They often aren't available, nor are they well known, so perhaps not. So simply requiring the purchase of one may be sufficient without any deposit, I suppose.

 

[Starmill]

However, if someone turns up at a gated station and says that they wish to take pictures of trains who's to say that having been let in for free / a platform ticket they won't board the next train and see how far it takes them? Obviously without ticket barriers the railway has no control over such instances but I don't see why rail enthusiasts should be treated any different to anyone else.

Well whatever your views, it seems you're barking up the wrong tree. Almost all TOCs are happy I think for people to take pictures on property they manage, so long as they follow the safety guidance and do as staff tell them - some like them to sign in, or use platform tickets or other things.

I mention Doncaster because I don't think I have ever been though the station without there being 3 or more people taking photos on the platforms.
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(Still amazed myself there are many people who come through the open gates and queue up at the ticket office going "I've just come from *unstaffed station*, can I buy a return from there please?" - makes me glad there are some honest people about!)

I did that at Leeds once, from an unstaffed station 50 miles away. The response was a resolute 'You what?'

 

[transmanche]

I think ticket gates are the only way to keep fare evasion in check on the tube and I would think fare evasion must be rife on the open DLR network.

It's actually very low, less than 1% in spring 2011.

There's a contractual requirement for Keolis/Amey to keep fare evasion below 3% across the system (and not above 6% at any one station). How do they know? Whilst stations may not have barriers, they do have Automated Passenger Counting equipment and they cross-reference this with data from RCI checks/sweeps and station blocks.

As a comparison, the rate of 'irregular' travel on London Underground in 2010 was 2.4%.

Source: FoI request in 2011
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About £100 penalty on SBB with no discretion whatsoever possible on regional services - not even for a faulty ticket machine.

As BBC correspondent Imogen Foulkes found out in 2013.

One frosty morning I arrived at my local station to find that the ticket machine was broken. No matter, I thought, I have got a smartphone, and I hurriedly set about buying my ticket that way.

This was not as easy as I had hoped, fiddling between credit card and phone with freezing cold fingers, but, by the time I got on the intercity to Geneva I had an e-ticket and I proudly showed it to the conductor.

Unfortunately she was less than impressed and told me in no uncertain terms that my ticket was not valid. Why, only became clear several weeks later when a letter arrived from Swiss railways euphemistically named "revenue protection service".

The good people there tell me the formal payment for my ticket from my credit card company arrived four minutes after my train left the station. That means, they say, that I bought my ticket on the train - and that is not allowed. Together with the letter was a fine for 190 francs (£133, $210)

In vain do I point to the broken ticket machine and my paid-for ticket, valid only on that day, for that journey.

 

[Antman]

It's actually very low, less than 1% in spring 2011.

There's a contractual requirement for Keolis/Amey to keep fare evasion below 3% across the system (and not above 6% at any one station). How do they know? Whilst stations may not have barriers, they do have Automated Passenger Counting equipment and they cross-reference this with data from RCI checks/sweeps and station blocks.

As a comparison, the rate of 'irregular' travel on London Underground in 2010 was 2.4%.

Source: FoI request in 2011
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As BBC correspondent Imogen Foulkes found out in 2013.

Are you saying fare evasion on the DLR is less than 1%? If so how is that figure arrived?

 

[transmanche]

Are you saying fare evasion on the DLR is less than 1%? If so how is that figure arrived?

That is what TfL is saying. The information is in the link I posted earlier.

 

[Antman]

That is what TfL is saying. The information is in the link I posted earlier.

Fair enough (no pun intended) but I suspect that is wishful thinking on the part of TfL

 

[transmanche]

Fair enough (no pun intended) but I suspect that is wishful thinking on the part of TfL

Do you have any evidence? What reason do you have for disputing the figures? Being as there would be penalty payments made by the operator to TfL if fare evasion exceeds 3%, it would not be in TfL's interest to understate the number.

 

[Simon11]

With a gated toc network, you are looking at 3% ticketless travel and it has to be higher on the DLR network-think how many honest people will often just forget to tap in with their Oyster card..

I wonder how well the onboard automated passenger counting systems are, compared to the actual customers checked. If you have "larger" passengers with luggage, it would appear that more customers have been checked with a correct ticket.

For customers without a ticket, they are only recorded if given an MG11 or penalty Fare. I'm sure some customers would have a valid reason (such as machine broken) and they would not get recorded as a ticketless customer.

I also wonder how many customers jump back on board when seeing the block and getting off at the next station?

 

[transmanche]

With a gated toc network, you are looking at 3% ticketless travel and it has to be higher on the DLR network

Ah, so no actual evidence, just surmise and opinion.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I don't mind enthusiasts being on the station provided they are not in the way (as they indeed usually are not), but I do think they should purchase a valid ticket as otherwise that's a hole in the defence against ticketless travel. Perhaps an option at staffed stations would be for a platform ticket to be issued against a deposit of whatever the current PF is (£20) plus a small fee for admin e.g. £1, with it necessary to go and report back to the ticket office every 1-2 hours (perhaps) to ensure travel does not occur, failure to do so meaning forfeit of the deposit?

If it was that complex, I'd just buy a local ticket to the nearest station.

Obviously this would work better in some places than others, depending on how far away the nearest station is.

At Doncaster for example, you can get a return to Bentley for £1.40.

 

[Simon11]

Ah, so no actual evidence, just surmise and opinion.

That wasn't "opinion", but based on real evidence from a TOC and have plenty of experience in knowing the performance for other TOC's.

Can't release the actual figures for commercial reasons.

 

[Antman]

Do you have any evidence? What reason do you have for disputing the figures? Being as there would be penalty payments made by the operator to TfL if fare evasion exceeds 3%, it would not be in TfL's interest to understate the number.

Quite obviously there is no evidence either way, fare dodgers don't buy tickets and they don't touch oyster cards in or out. Surely that is obvious?
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Ah, so no actual evidence, just surmise and opinion.

Just like the 'official figures' then:roll:

 

[transmanche]

Quite obviously there is no evidence either way, fare dodgers don't buy tickets and they don't touch oyster cards in or out. Surely that is obvious?

I'm guessing that you didn't read the information that I linked earlier, which explains in detail how the figures are calculated?

 

[Antman]

I'm guessing that you didn't read the information that I linked earlier, which explains in detail how the figures are calculated?

Pie in the sky, however if you choose to believe something is true because TfL say so then that's up to you, this being the same TfL that claimed fare evasion on open boarding bendybuses was no higher than on any other type of bus before they had to backtrack and devour humble pie.

 

[transmanche]

Pie in the sky, however if you choose to believe something is true because TfL say so then that's up to you, this being the same TfL that claimed fare evasion on open boarding bendybuses was no higher than on any other type of bus before they had to backtrack and devour humble pie.

So again, your own opinion - but no evidence.

It's not a question of what I might or might not believe. I've merely pointed you to the figures as agreed by TfL and the operator and the methodology used to calculate them. You disagree with them, but it seems simply on the basis that you feel they are too low...

 

[Antman]

So again, your own opinion - but no evidence.

It's not a question of what I might or might not believe. I've merely pointed you to the figures as agreed by TfL and the operator and the methodology used to calculate them. You disagree with them, but it seems simply on the basis that you feel they are too low...

I can only repeat that there is no evidence either way. If the 1% figure is true then it has been a total waste of time and money putting in ticket gates on LU and the big railway because 99% of people are totally honest.............if only:cry:

 

[Simon11]

Ticketless Travel calculations will never be correct, due to the challenges in gathering the data and not being able to ask everyone.

However, using logic and information from other channels, it doesn't take a genius to work out that DLR rates look rather low in comparison without any decent reasons as to why.

 

[transmanche]

I can only repeat that there is no evidence either way.

There's plenty of evidence one way and absolutely no evidence the other way. You're just choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

 

[Antman]

There's plenty of evidence one way and absolutely no evidence the other way. You're just choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

Oh for goodness sake, you might believe everything you're told but don't expect others to do likewise:roll:
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Ticketless Travel calculations will never be correct, due to the challenges in gathering the data and not being able to ask everyone.

However, using logic and information from other channels, it doesn't take a genius to work out that DLR rates look rather low in comparison without any decent reasons as to why.

Exactly!

 

[transmanche]

Oh for goodness sake, you might believe everything you're told but don't expect others to do likewise:roll:

Whereas you refuse to believe anything that doesn't fit in with your existing opinions, no matter what the facts say.

• It would make absolutely no financial sense for TfL to understate the ticketless travel rate - but you believe that to be so.
• You haven't highlighted any deficiency in the methodology used to calculate the ticketless travel rates - merely stating that they 'must' be wrong, because the facts don't fit your agenda.

 

[Simon11]

It would make absolutely no financial sense for TfL to understate the ticketless travel rate - but you believe that to be so.

It will make financial sense for the DLR operator to under report figures. They end up paying a penalty if the ticketless travel rate is high. There is also the public perception of ticketless travel and they won't want customers to see a high figure- if they report it as 6%, its going to look rather bad for TfL in the media.

You haven't highlighted any deficiency in the methodology used to calculate the ticketless travel rates - merely stating that they 'must' be wrong, because the facts don't fit your agenda.

Unfortunately, we have only been provided with basic information on how the analysis was conducted and I have only managed to find the snapshot of data from 2011.

 

[Antman]

Whereas you refuse to believe anything that doesn't fit in with your existing opinions, no matter what the facts say.

• It would make absolutely no financial sense for TfL to understate the ticketless travel rate - but you believe that to be so.
• You haven't highlighted any deficiency in the methodology used to calculate the ticketless travel rates - merely stating that they 'must' be wrong, because the facts don't fit your agenda.

I don't have an agenda. I use the DLR regularly and there are occasional rather half hearted ticket checks on trains and those without valid tickets or oysters are given the choice of getting off at the next stop and making the necessary arrangements or paying a penalty fare, they invariably opt to get off so will they be recorded as fare dodgers? At busy times when trains are packed any sort of ticket checks are impossible anyway. So clearly the 1% figure is poppycock!

 

[transmanche]

It will make financial sense for the DLR operator to under report figures. They end up paying a penalty if the ticketless travel rate is high.

I mentioned that upthread. Which is precisely why I said it is not in TFL's interest to understate the figures. And it's TfL who are publishing the figures.

There is also the public perception of ticketless travel and they won't want customers to see a high figure- if they report it as 6%, its going to look rather bad for TfL in the media.

Yet they were quite happy to admit that ticketless travel on LO was almost 10% in 2007. (Reduced to 1.7% by 2010.)

Unfortunately, we have only been provided with basic information on how the analysis was conducted and only provided with a snapshot of data from 2011.

I think the information on the methodology used was sufficient to determine that it's quite a rigorous study. And there's data from 2004-2010, broken down by travel mode (bus, tube, LO, DLR and tram) in the FoI response.

 

[Flamingo]

I think we all know there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

By it's very nature, fare evasion figures are always going to be an estimate. The only two points I would make are
1. TOC's have an interest in underreporting fare evasion, as there are usually franchise requirements to have it below a certain level, and Revenue Protection is an expensive task which may not appear cost-effective.
2. Even 1% of a very large number is a large number. A few million here, a few million there, and soon you're talking serious money.

 

[transmanche]

I use the DLR regularly and there are occasional rather half hearted ticket checks on trains[...]

843,328 Oyster cards were checked by RCIs on the DLR during the month before the FoI response. That's about 27,200 per day. Let's be generous and say there are 275,000 DLR passengers every day (that's the figure for 2013/2014, it's likely to have been less in 2007). Hardly 'half-hearted'!

So clearly the 1% figure is poppycock!

Clearly the prejudiced opinion of one passenger is far more reliable than a rigorous study. Imagine how much money TfL could save on calculating ticketless travel estimates if they simply employed you instead... :roll:

 

[Simon11]

The process DLR uses for measuring fare evasion is full station blocks.
DLR has an automated passenger counting system (APC) which captures the
number of passengers using each station in two minute parcels. This data
is then used to create a detailed profile of station use. Each station is
then blocked multiple times to capture fare evasion levels that are
representative for the use of each station.

During each block, all alighting passengers’ tickets are checked. Any
passenger without a valid ticket will be issued a penalty fare or MG11
prosecution notice. The total number of penalty fares and MG11s compared
to the total number of people alighting the station (as recorded by the
APC) for the duration of the block creates the fare evasion percentage.
DLR’s contractual target is 3 per cent for the system for a quarter and no
single station exceeding 6 per cent. The current DLR fare evasion for
last quarter is under 1 per cent.

In addition to the measured blocks, DLR conducts other station and train
revenue protection activities. These activities include on-train ticket
checking station blocks and platform sweeps, along with joint activities
with British Transport Police and other operators. DLR captures data about
these activities (843,328 Oyster cards were checked last month), but they
do not form part of the fare evasion figure.

I wish to point out that these Oyster card checks have nothing to do with the ticketless travel rates.

 

[transmanche]

By it's very nature, fare evasion figures are always going to be an estimate.

Of course, but there are estimate and there are estimates.

You could so a ticket check on one single train and from that say x% of travel was ticketless. But that's obviously a poor methodology and not going to deliver an accurate estimate of ticketless travel generally.

But we're not talking about that. We're talking about a rigorous methodology based on sampling across different times of the day and week and based on a known number of passengers (as the DLR uses Automatic Passenger Counting).

So the question becomes which estimate do you think is more accurate? A rigourous survey, or the opinion of a passenger.
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I wish to point out that these Oyster card checks have nothing to do with the ticketless travel rates.

And? I was responding to Antman's premise that there are only "occasional rather half hearted ticket checks on trains". Which is clearly not the case.