Are ticket barriers beneficial?

[Hadders]

I don't have an issue with ticket gates. They'll never be the full solution to ticket less travel but are extremely useful alongside on-board checks and more intelligence led 'stings'.

No-one's mentioned it yet but ticket gates make it easier for decent CCTV images of travellers to be captured. I wonder if the security authorities are involved somewhere here...

 

[northwichcat]

In todays H&S climate I would have thought it should be a requirement to have a member of staff at the barriers all the time they are operational?

And that one person probably won't just release all the barriers immediately if someone shouts 'Fire.'

 

[Antman]

And that one person probably won't just release all the barriers immediately if someone shouts 'Fire.'

Pardon?

 

[northwichcat]

Pardon?

If one passenger says to the person manning the barriers there's a fire then will he/she immediately open all the barriers and let everyone through without checking tickets?
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No-one's mentioned it yet but ticket gates make it easier for decent CCTV images of travellers to be captured. I wonder if the security authorities are involved somewhere here...

I'm not sure. Northern Rail haven't fitted CCTV to any of their DMUs but have fitted ticket barriers at stations. Would the Police rally want to see everyone enter and exit Bolton station opposed to CCTV on the train where an offence occurred?

 

[Antman]

If one passenger says to the person manning the barriers there's a fire then will he/she immediately open all the barriers and let everyone through without checking tickets?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Could be a ploy used by fare dodgers

There is also the far greater risk of somebody's clothing or baggage getting caught in the closing gates and no staff being on hand to take appropriate action

 

[Iskra]

If one passenger says to the person manning the barriers there's a fire then will he/she immediately open all the barriers and let everyone through without checking tickets?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm not sure. Northern Rail haven't fitted CCTV to any of their DMUs but have fitted ticket barriers at stations. Would the Police rally want to see everyone enter and exit Bolton station opposed to CCTV on the train where an offence occurred?

There's CCTV fitted on 158's.

Fairly sure I've seen some fake/dummy looking CCTV domes on other Northern Stock too.

 

[HowardGWR]

The travel guides to Berlin state that the open station policy is backed up by flying squads of ticket controllers and the punishments are severe. It would be interesting if our people exchanged information on this trust system, but perhaps it might only result in the 'not invented here' reaction.

 

[Flamingo]

The travel guides to Berlin state that the open station policy is backed up by flying squads of ticket controllers and the punishments are severe. It would be interesting if our people exchanged information on this trust system, but perhaps it might only result in the 'not invented here' reaction.

A colleague went to Germany as the equivelant of an RPI. They operate a zero tolerance policy to irregularities, have MUCH larger on the spot fines/charges, and are much more visible. He described it as Revenue Protection as it should be done.

I think the phrase that covers it is "Be careful what you wish for"...

 

[TEW]

I still feel that among the most pointless gates are those at Guildford. The footbridge, which is a public right of way, is gated at either end (rather than the slightly more sensible option of gating the entrance to each platform). So anyone wanting to use the footbridge as a through route can simply ask for a bridge pass which will let them through. Presumably there's not much to stop miscreants from doing this, unless staff are on the ball and watching the CCTV... how many people actually get caught using bridge passes to access the platforms?

There are ways of catching people, and quite a lot of people do get caught. And as you suggest, it doesn't end well for them. Gating every platform wouldn't work because there simply isn't the room the room to do it. A solution is on the cards though, and hopefully will be implemented soon.

 

[sheff1]

You can blame me for the swarm of ticket gates. When I was LU client for revenue matters I talked to the managers from Prism about the merits of ticket gates for the C2C route. We also did a special agreement to install them at Barking station which was the first NR managed location to gain ticket gates. In the context of managing heavy flows on an urban network then I think they are part of the right overall solution for managing fare evasion / revenue fraud. They are part of a package though - you need trained staff, you need to use the special features on the gates and you should still have intelligence led on train and on station revenue checks. Gates (not barriers !! ) are not a panacea.

I agree completely with those who argue that they are properly staffed, managed and configured with the right ticket checking logic. If you don't / can't / won't get these things right then don't bother. I also seriously question the frankly daft / unsafe layouts on many NR stations which don't provide adequate capacity and cause queues. Again why bother?

My final bugbear is installing gates and then being so hopeless about staffing them that they're in use for barely a few hours a day and are then left open. A waste of time and money. Ditto installing on "Inter City" stations where they can be more trouble than they are worth. I've never really understood DfT's insistence on gating these routes given the usual ability for on train staff to conduct ticket checks. If I'd ever been asked I'd never have recommended use on these routes.

Interesting, mirrors my thoughts exactly ...

...exceept for not being 'barriers'. Something which restrains my progress when holding a valid ticket is most definitely a barrier in my view.

 

[Muzer]

There are ways of catching people, and quite a lot of people do get caught. And as you suggest, it doesn't end well for them. Gating every platform wouldn't work because there simply isn't the room the room to do it. A solution is on the cards though, and hopefully will be implemented soon.

Building another bridge?

 

[Clip]

How does this work when someone who, like me, is cloth eared and can't use the phone turns up?

There are modern gates out there around the network now where the help point next to the gates will let you through and you don't have to be cloth eared either as some even have video now !

 

[RichmondCommu]

No reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to go take pictures of trains on platforms as long as they're doing so safely that I can see. If the train company insists it could sell them a platform ticket.

Why? The stations are there for the travelling public and not for someone wanting to take pictures whilst doing silly things with their arms to encourage the driver to use the horn.

 

[Starmill]

Why? The stations are there for the travelling public and not for someone wanting to take pictures whilst doing silly things with their arms to encourage the driver to use the horn.

What's it to you if someone wants to take a picture of a train? It doesn't adversely affect you in any way subject to the aforementioned caveat, so the only reason you might not want them there that I can see is out of spite. I take it you've never been to Doncaster? If people want to make fools of themselves once again that is their business... subject to aforementioned caveat.

 

[bramling]

Quite a lot of the time the station personnel just leave them open, at least when I'm exiting the station.

There are some really big stations that have none at all.

If all you have to do to get on is to say your a train enthusiast with a camera round your neck I'm assuming anyone can get away with it.

A guy at Bletchley stopped me entering the station at 07:00 because I had a off peak ticket, but all I wanted to do was film trains whilst waiting for my train. So annoying. :roll:

I believe all stations should be barrier free. Rail enthusiasts should be able to apply for a pass which gets them through the barrier.

Just a few thoughts.

Yes they are a pain, in terms of slowing down flows, and requiring passengers to put their belongings down etc. They are also a nuisance as they cause season tickets to wear out quicker, requiring a visit to the ticket office to get replaced - which can be a right pain if you normally travel at times when the ticket office is closed or has long queues.

However, they do bring indirect benefits. The general consensus is that they most definitely reduce the number of undesirables on the platforms and on trains. This also helps on-train staff in reducing ticketing disputes, which can only be good especially as these staff work alone. And for those who pay their fare, anything that also helps ensure others pay is good. So yes a pain, but probably worthwhile in the grand scheme of things.

However, the gatelines need to be staffed adequately. Both to ensure legitimate passengers can get through without undue delay, and to ensure there are enough staff on hand to deal with a dispute. The worst outcome is the ticketing dispute ('not paying what are you going to do?') just gets moved from train to gateline, or people just get let through and then the guard has to deal with it. There also needs to be a system in place to ensure people can't buy any ticket just to get through, so gates should never be the only attempt at stopping fare evasion. Finally the gateline layout needs to be fit for purpose. There are quite a few places where gatelines have been shoe-horned into locations where there wasn't really room, causing chaos at times.

In a perfect world I'd rather not have gates, but in the grand scheme of things they're a pain worth having.

 

[Senex]

The travel guides to Berlin state that the open station policy is backed up by flying squads of ticket controllers and the punishments are severe. It would be interesting if our people exchanged information on this trust system, but perhaps it might only result in the 'not invented here' reaction.

It was certainly done up to two or three years ago by squads of plain-clothes RPIs who would join an S-Bahn vehicle at all doors, wait for the train to move, then bring out their ID and start a check, processing all passengers before the next stop, when they would get off and move to another vehicle. It worked very well indeed.

 

[sarahj]

Barriers are handy backups for train crew. On the west coastway line, there used to be a high occurrence of ticketless travel between Lancing and Shoreham. It's only 3 mins, but many of the locals treated it as a free ride. When you caught the wont pay mob, all you could do was throw them off at the station they were going to anyway. Then Shoreham got barriers, and they seem to be manned when many others are not. Thus ticketless travel between the two stations dropped.
Its amazing at stations when the barriers are open how many folks will walk pass the open ticket office and ticket machines and board without tickets, and as a guard its quite depressing to be working trains on a line where the stations are 2- 3 mins apart, then come into the major stations with barriers and find them open.
Its also amazing to see the traffic at the first station without a barrier outside of a main town. Aldrington. Tiny station, no car park, bus stops a bit of walk, but no barrier, only 5 mins from Brighton, including a stop at Hove, yet sometimes quite busy. hmmm wonder why?

Ok, they are not the solution to all issues, but they help. You can see the only downside at Brighton station at about 3.50 in the morning. First train, first stop Haywards Heath. The staff lock out all barriers and passengers have to go through one gate where each ticket is checked. Bought a ticket to Preston Park. Nope. Go back and try again.

When conversations go like this, your happy that barriers work.

Can I have a ticket to Brighton.
Where from?
Hove
I watched you get off the train from littlehampton to London, try again.
Aldrington
It does not stop there, try again...
Errr, Errr, Errr Shoreham.
There are ticket barriers at Shoreham
They were open, and the guy let me through.
mmmm, ok £X.XX. I guess just a single then.
Errr yes.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What's it to you if someone wants to take a picture of a train? It doesn't adversely affect you in any way subject to the aforementioned caveat, so the only reason you might not want them there that I can see is out of spite. I take it you've never been to Doncaster? If people want to make fools of themselves once again that is their business... subject to aforementioned caveat.

What a strange question to ask! However yes I have been to Donny on several occasions, in particular to watch Derby County take on Doncaster Rovers at the Keepmoat Stadium. And I have to say that for a club of Donny Rovers size the Keepmoat is a very tidy stadium. In addition an old friend of mine from Uni hales from Donny and I've had a few nights out in Donny over the years; the now demolished (as far as I know) Park Lane night club was great if you were drunk and wanted some fun under the market stalls.

However, if someone turns up at a gated station and says that they wish to take pictures of trains who's to say that having been let in for free / a platform ticket they won't board the next train and see how far it takes them? Obviously without ticket barriers the railway has no control over such instances but I don't see why rail enthusiasts should be treated any different to anyone else.

 

[bicbasher]

In London, I'd largely say yes. They maintain revenue and keep undesirables off the railway. I feel safer travelling on a line with gatelines than one that isn't.

On the other hand, gatelines attract another type of idiot. The card clasher. One at Richmond had his Oyster and contactless together on Friday and the gateline assistant tried to help him and was met with an attitude problem from the passenger.

 

[Aldaniti]

What a strange question to ask! However yes I have been to Donny on several occasions, in particular to watch Derby County take on Doncaster Rovers at the Keepmoat Stadium. And I have to say that for a club of Donny Rovers size the Keepmoat is a very tidy stadium. In addition an old friend of mine from Uni hales from Donny and I've had a few nights out in Donny over the years; the now demolished (as far as I know) Park Lane night club was great if you were drunk and wanted some fun under the market stalls.

However, if someone turns up at a gated station and says that they wish to take pictures of trains who's to say that having been let in for free / a platform ticket they won't board the next train and see how far it takes them? Obviously without ticket barriers the railway has no control over such instances but I don't see why rail enthusiasts should be treated any different to anyone else.

Your views on rail enthusiasts wanting access to platforms are clear, and technically correct. As a human being however, your views are quite sad to read, particularly comming from a member of a railway forum where the word 'enthusiast' covers many manifestations. If I was an aircraft enthusiast my local airport would welcome me with open arms and even point me in the direction of a dedicated viewing facility - and an enthusiasts shop. As far as fare dodgers are concerned, I suspect most would probably pay the fare rather than admit to being a rail enthusiast, such is societys generally warped view of such individuals.

 

[Antman]

It was certainly done up to two or three years ago by squads of plain-clothes RPIs who would join an S-Bahn vehicle at all doors, wait for the train to move, then bring out their ID and start a check, processing all passengers before the next stop, when they would get off and move to another vehicle. It worked very well indeed.

I think there is something about the British culture about getting something for nothing where as our friends in mainland Europe are likely to pay up without question. The constant complaints about the price of train fares in this country probably doesn't help and I'm sure most people who dodge the fare wouldn't dream of taking something from a shop that they hadn't paid for. I think a lot of onboard ticket checks would irritate people too, they don't appreciate being interrupted whilst they are busy on their phone or laptop. I think ticket gates are the only way to keep fare evasion in check on the tube and I would think fare evasion must be rife on the open DLR network.

 

[daccer]

The benefits of ticket barriers far outweigh the negatives. The simple fact is that on board checking is very hit and miss and does vary massively according to the attitude of the staff concerned.

Ticket barriers at least ensure that a ticket is held. It does eradicate the casual fare dodger and there are other benefits also.

Barriers can be used to remove tickets from circulation which have been used. Particularly useful for open returns which may get used more than once.

They can regulate passenger flows and can be set to keep platforms free from overcrowding.

They are not perfect but they serve a purpose. If we were all more honest they wouldn't be needed but hey ho that is not the world we live in. People who moan about barriers would also probably stand by whilst someone blatantly fare dodges next to them in a carriage. The two are related - we just choose to not reflect on this.

 

[Greenback]

I think we have to face facts - nothing will ever eradicate fare evasion completely. I agree with daccer's summary, they do serve a purpose but they can be irritating, annoying, and indeed downright useless at times.

 

[PowerLee]

The thing that annoys me about ticket barriers at railway stations is its very rare to find them actually in use due to staff shortages.

Early in the morning or late at night is a pretty good time to find barriers locked open & no ticket checks being done on the train.

More barriers, more staff to actually work them & more staff on the trains checking tickets is what's needed to target fare evasion.

 

[Greenback]

If it's perceived that the costs of targeting fare evasion exceed the revenue gained, it won't happen.

 

[causton]

Ticket barriers certainly help, in the ticket office I work at you can tell whether the barriers are open or not by how many tickets you sell to local places! Most people going to London will always buy a Travelcard etc from us, but people going one or two stops up the line? Some days you sell loads, some you sell none! Amazing that!


(Still amazed myself there are many people who come through the open gates and queue up at the ticket office going "I've just come from *unstaffed station*, can I buy a return from there please?" - makes me glad there are some honest people about!)

 

[Greenback]

There are a lot of honest people about. Sometimes we forget how many there are given the nature of many of the discussions here!

 

[Flamingo]

There are a lot of honest people about. Sometimes we forget how many there are given the nature of many of the discussions here!

There are lots of honest people, and the pity is that they have to be inconvenienced because of the actions of the dishonest ones. However, such is life, and the sensible honest ones understand the reason.

 

[Senex]

I think we have to face facts - nothing will ever eradicate fare evasion completely. I agree with daccer's summary, they do serve a purpose but they can be irritating, annoying, and indeed downright useless at times.

I agree in general -- and I certainly think they are irritating, annoying, and indeed downright useless at times, especially when one has a ticket that will not work them and is kept waiting for more than five minutes whilst a single member of staff deals with another passenger (personal experience at Newark).

However, one disadvantage of barriers is that they seem to encourage on-board staff to be less thorough in ticket-checking, with one result being more people without first-class tickets getting away with first-class travel (and that's only the ones one knows about from over-hearing their conversations!). And it does seem a bit much to force long-distance passengers coming off a train that hasn't made a stop in a hundred miles to queue up to get through the barriers on arrival at destination.

 

[themeone]

It seems pretty easy to tailgate through most barriers. I've seen a lot of it in the London area, and not once have I seen barrier staff challenge the tailgater.

I had a personal instance of a valid ticket being rejected today - barriers at Westcliff did not accept a Southend Central to West Ham ticket for entry. Since Southend is only one stop away from Westcliff it seems a pretty obvious break of journey to programme in. Not only that it took a while for staff to let me through, resulting in me almost missing a train.