Are ticket barriers beneficial?

[plcd1]

You can blame me for the swarm of ticket gates. When I was LU client for revenue matters I talked to the managers from Prism about the merits of ticket gates for the C2C route. We also did a special agreement to install them at Barking station which was the first NR managed location to gain ticket gates. In the context of managing heavy flows on an urban network then I think they are part of the right overall solution for managing fare evasion / revenue fraud. They are part of a package though - you need trained staff, you need to use the special features on the gates and you should still have intelligence led on train and on station revenue checks. Gates (not barriers !! ) are not a panacea.

I agree completely with those who argue that they are properly staffed, managed and configured with the right ticket checking logic. If you don't / can't / won't get these things right then don't bother. I also seriously question the frankly daft / unsafe layouts on many NR stations which don't provide adequate capacity and cause queues. Again why bother?

My final bugbear is installing gates and then being so hopeless about staffing them that they're in use for barely a few hours a day and are then left open. A waste of time and money. Ditto installing on "Inter City" stations where they can be more trouble than they are worth. I've never really understood DfT's insistence on gating these routes given the usual ability for on train staff to conduct ticket checks. If I'd ever been asked I'd never have recommended use on these routes.

 

[dysonsphere]

on stations wheres shops are the wrong side of gates never had a problem been let through for the shop/bar etc, thinks Reading and Derby not making a list thats just where Ive done it. if youre polite and ask never a problem

 

[northwichcat]

Ditto installing on "Inter City" stations where they can be more trouble than they are worth. I've never really understood DfT's insistence on gating these routes given the usual ability for on train staff to conduct ticket checks. If I'd ever been asked I'd never have recommended use on these routes.

When Peter Wilkinson was first given a senior role at DfT he was quoted by the Financial Times as saying ticket barriers at mainline stations are false economy and more staff checking tickets would provide better value for money. It seems others in DfT didn't agree with the requirement to install ticket barriers at a number of mainline stations being written in to the Virgin Trains Direct Award.

 

[Starmill]

No reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to go take pictures of trains on platforms as long as they're doing so safely that I can see. If the train company insists it could sell them a platform ticket.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

(I don't mind them being remote-monitored provided there's a phone to call someone to let you through *and* that is answered within 30 seconds or so)

How does this work when someone who, like me, is cloth eared and can't use the phone turns up?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When Peter Wilkinson was first given a senior role at DfT he was quoted by the Financial Times as saying ticket barriers at mainline stations are false economy and more staff checking tickets would provide better value for money. It seems others in DfT didn't agree with the requirement to install ticket barriers at a number of mainline stations being written in to the Virgin Trains Direct Award.

Do both and you'll catch almost everyone.
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How doe sthis work when someone who, like me, is cloth eared and can't use the phone turns up?

Fair point. I guess there would have to be some kind of emergency "I need assistance and am deaf" button. There would need to be a camera for showing any ticket anyway.

 

[Antman]

Quite a lot of the time the station personnel just leave them open, at least when I'm exiting the station.

There are some really big stations that have none at all.

If all you have to do to get on is to say your a train enthusiast with a camera round your neck I'm assuming anyone can get away with it.

A guy at Bletchley stopped me entering the station at 07:00 because I had a off peak ticket, but all I wanted to do was film trains whilst waiting for my train. So annoying. :roll:

I believe all stations should be barrier free. Rail enthusiasts should be able to apply for a pass which gets them through the barrier.

Just a few thoughts.

Well they can be a pain sometimes but I guess they go someway to reducing fare evasion even though they are by no means foolproof. Are platform tickets still available? Mind you I suppose at gated stations dishonest people would buy one and once on the platform get on a train.
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I have encountered a LUL barrier which was unstaffed, my ticket (valid) didn't work, and the emergency open button also didn't work. I forget where, it was a while ago. Can't remember if I reported it, but it was a definite fire hazard. As I'm quite big I just shoved through and the alarms went off, nobody made any attempt to respond. Very concerning.

(I don't mind them being remote-monitored provided there's a phone to call someone to let you through *and* that is answered within 30 seconds or so, but I *do* mind being effectively trapped in with a valid ticket)

I thought they were supposed to be staffed at all times otherwise left open?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought they were supposed to be staffed at all times otherwise left open?

They are, but this one wasn't.

 

[Antman]

They are, but this one wasn't.

Did you contact TfL about it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you contact TfL about it?

No, I forgot, and it was ages ago. Should have done.

 

[transmanche]

Are platform tickets still available? Mind you I suppose at gated stations dishonest people would buy one and once on the platform get on a train.

Although when caught on the train, their actions demonstrate intent to avoid payment; thus leaving themselves open to an RoRA charge, rather than a simple Bylaw infringement.

 

[Simon11]

When Peter Wilkinson was first given a senior role at DfT he was quoted by the Financial Times as saying ticket barriers at mainline stations are false economy and more staff checking tickets would provide better value for money. It seems others in DfT didn't agree with the requirement to install ticket barriers at a number of mainline stations being written in to the Virgin Trains Direct Award.

Peter Wilkinson really didn't think fully about his statement above.

It is fine for long distance passengers, as they are more likely to be checked on their journey. However for customers travelling between "mainline stations" such as Birmingham & Coventry do require to have the installation of gates.

Gates can be in operation if no member of staff is present at quieter LU stations, as long as there is a member of staff at the station.

 

[northwichcat]

Peter Wilkinson really didn't think fully about his statement above.

It is fine for long distance passengers, as they are more likely to be checked on their journey. However for customers travelling between "mainline stations" such as Birmingham & Coventry do require to have the installation of gates.

Gates can be in operation if no member of staff is present at quieter LU stations, as long as there is a member of staff at the station.

I don't think you've thought about your response.

With ticket barriers anyone can access the platforms with a Birmingham to Five Ways ticket.

Ticket inspectors don't have to be on the train, they can inspect your ticket before you board the train or after you leave one. Then if you show a Five Ways ticket after alighting a VT service you'll be taken to one side.

 

[Simon11]

With Smartcards, it will be very simple to work how who is on sandwich tickets.

 

[alexl92]

My personal experience is that barriers are a pain in the backside and do not offer the benefits argued by TOCs.

In Leeds they only seem good because around 20 gates replaced two manual checking booths but I'm constantly amazed by the number of people who don't understand how they work. Not only that but Leeds' barriers are incredibly slow.

At Huddersfield there seems to be no logic in when they're used. Sometimes they're left open immediately after the evening rush hour, but yet the other week I got back into Huddersfield at 7:30pm on a Saturday night and they were still operational.
I'm pretty sure TPE only installed them in Huddersfield thanks to pressure from Northern as well.

 

[richieb1971]

Well to summarize my points again -

If a rail enthusiast can get on the platform, then anyone posing as a rail enthusiast can.

The barriers slow you down and cause havoc.

Quite often the barriers are left open. I've walked through many at all times of day.


In other words, instead of all this mayhem get the tickets checked on trains.

 

[Muzer]

I still feel that among the most pointless gates are those at Guildford. The footbridge, which is a public right of way, is gated at either end (rather than the slightly more sensible option of gating the entrance to each platform). So anyone wanting to use the footbridge as a through route can simply ask for a bridge pass which will let them through. Presumably there's not much to stop miscreants from doing this, unless staff are on the ball and watching the CCTV... how many people actually get caught using bridge passes to access the platforms?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still feel that among the most pointless gates are those at Guildford. The footbridge, which is a public right of way, is gated at either end (rather than the slightly more sensible option of gating the entrance to each platform). So anyone wanting to use the footbridge as a through route can simply ask for a bridge pass which will let them through. Presumably there's not much to stop miscreants from doing this, unless staff are on the ball and watching the CCTV... how many people actually get caught using bridge passes to access the platforms?

I'd imagine they do periodic checks on board and on platforms, and if people are found they are immediately prosecuted as that is a clear case of wilful misuse.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I was wondering this passing through the other day as it rang a bell - by passenger numbers is Colwyn Bay the quietest gated station?

 

[CC 72100]

Well to summarize my points again -

If a rail enthusiast can get on the platform, then anyone posing as a rail enthusiast can.

The barriers slow you down and cause havoc.

Quite often the barriers are left open. I've walked through many at all times of day.


In other words, instead of all this mayhem get the tickets checked on trains.

That's some very emotive language. As other people have said, what about having both?

How do you propose ticket checks in urban areas? Just remember that you don't have an endless budget and so RPIs on every train (a nice idea) aren't going to be a realistic option.

 

[Flamingo]

Peter Wilkinson really didn't think fully about his statement above.

It is fine for long distance passengers, as they are more likely to be checked on their journey. However for customers travelling between "mainline stations" such as Birmingham & Coventry do require to have the installation of gates.

Gates can be in operation if no member of staff is present at quieter LU stations, as long as there is a member of staff at the station.

Leaving Paddington on my "Intercity" train calling at "Mainline" stations, I will have anything up to six hundred people on board. Approximately 2-300 of these will be leaving at Reading. A large minority of these will be transferring to other trains going to ungated stations. Some of those trains are DOO. How in Gods name am I expected to have checked all those tickets by the time we arrive in Reading, 25-30 minutes later?

To avoid repeating myself ad nauseum, here is my view from October 1013, it hasn't changed http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1586132&postcount=59

. How many staff would be required to check every ticket on a train between stops? On a busy train with eight carriages (average 70-80 people in each), if I have no hold-ups I can check a full carriage in about 8-10 minutes, quicker if all season tickets, slower if weekend leisure travellers. On my line most stops are 15 minutes apart, a few 25. If I have to actually stop and sell tickets, that gets slower again. And don't forget, my primary role is NOT to check and sell tickets.

As I said in other posts, barriers will stop the large number of "pay when challenged" passengers, which will free my time up from selling tickets to them. On-train checks are necessary as well, but they are much more effective if passengers boarding have some sort of ticket in the first place, as when forced to, most people will buy the correct ticket.

I've often pointed out the ticket sales for Grangetown station in Cardiff, the closest unbarriered station to Cardiff Central. Ticket sales to and from Grangetown dropped by over 500k a year after ATW barriered the main stations in South Wales. Passengers still turn up at barriers in Cardiff asking for a ticket from Grangetown, they have very often come from another unbarriered station much further away (Stapleton Road in one case a week ago).

Nothing works on it's own, Revenue Protection is a complex task, and requires a multi-prong approach. Barriers are a simple and proven deterrent, but sometimes are a victim of their own success as after they are in operation for a while, word gets around, the majority of passengers buy tickets, fewer passengers purchase tickets at excess fares windows, and some bean-counter decides there is no need to employ barrier staff as they are not taking revenue.

Working any peak-time train from Paddington, and/or weekend train, if a barriered platform, pretty much everybody will have a ticket. If an unbarriered platform, I'll expect to sell anything up to a dozen, in the two or at most three STD class carriages I'll get done before Reading. When asked, they will invariably have a story about running for the train - some of them I will have clocked on-board 20 minutes before departure. Some of them will be violent when asked to buy a ticket.

Barriers are a big, big deterrent to ticketless travel, in my opinion the single biggest one. Checking tickets is the biggest cause of conflict and assaults to on-train staff (lone workers). Anything that reduces that risk to staff should be increased, not removed.

The only thing I would add, is that since Bristol Temple Meads started running barriers until after midnight, the late trains out of Bristol are a LOT better behaved. ATW tried it a while ago at Cardiff on a Friday and Saturday, but according to my informant decided that despite a huge revenue take, they would need too high a BTP presence to do it permanently, due to the trouble caused by passengers who were heading to and for trains without tickets...

 

[themeone]

Leaving aside issues of revenue protection, I'd say for the average passenger barriers are just a nuisance. I only realised how much I dislike them after experiencing rail travel in Germany where they don't seem to use them.

The only conceivable direct benefit to passengers is knowing that you must have touched in or put a ticket through otherwise you couldn't have got on to the platform. Without barriers it's easy to walk through without your ticket or without touching in.

But since since acceptance of a ticket by the barriers doesn't necessarily mean the ticket is valid (and vice versa) even that benefit if open to question.

 

[Muzer]

The only conceivable direct benefit to passengers is knowing that you must have touched in or put a ticket through otherwise you couldn't have got on to the platform. Without barriers it's easy to walk through without your ticket or without touching in.

I somewhat disagree. As Flamingo alluded to above, the removal of the worst behaviour of those who only catch the train because they believe they can get away with catching it for free is a significant direct benefit to passengers on late night services.

 

[CC 72100]

The only thing I would add, is that since Bristol Temple Meads started running barriers until after midnight, the late trains out of Bristol are a LOT better behaved. ATW tried it a while ago at Cardiff on a Friday and Saturday, but according to my informant decided that despite a huge revenue take, they would need too high a BTP presence to do it permanently, due to the trouble caused by passengers who were heading to and for trains without tickets...

Which would suggest that, *shudder*, there's lot of people who don't want to pay for travel and only pay when challenged?

Surely having trains devoid of 'can't pay / won't pay / will get all violent' types is a benefit to everybody - staff and other passengers alike.

I didn't know Bristol was now until after midnight, barriers at my local station certainly are now operated a lot later than they ever used to.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

They are quite beneficial to Shenzhen Yuan Mechanical Electronic Co., Ltd
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Leaving Paddington on my "Intercity" train calling at "Mainline" stations, I will have anything up to six hundred people on board. Approximately 2-300 of these will be leaving at Reading. A large minority of these will be transferring to other trains going to ungated stations. Some of those trains are DOO. How in Gods name am I expected to have checked all those tickets by the time we arrive in Reading, 25-30 minutes later?

...

Don't they ever have a squad descend and do the whole train on the odd occasion ? Am just wondering how else you would catch someone making the journey regularly with a combination of Paddington - Acton Mainline and Reading - Reading West season tickets

 

[plastictaffy]

A guy at Bletchley stopped me entering the station at 07:00 because I had a off peak ticket, but all I wanted to do was film trains whilst waiting for my train. So annoying. :roll:

Quite a surprise that there was even anyone on the barrier at BLY - there rarely is!!!
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In other words, instead of all this mayhem get the tickets checked on trains.

You try working a 2x321 on a Tring Terminator with no corridor connection between the trains, then tell me that the tickets should be checked on train.......
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I'd imagine they do periodic checks on board and on platforms, and if people are found they are immediately prosecuted as that is a clear case of wilful misuse.

What planet are you on?? In your world, of course, a policeman still walks the beat, and people would return your wallet with all the money still in!!!!!

 

[Antman]

I'd imagine they do periodic checks on board and on platforms, and if people are found they are immediately prosecuted as that is a clear case of wilful misuse.

I don't think they do, it would mean following people who were given a pass to see where they go.

 

[northwichcat]

You try working a 2x321 on a Tring Terminator with no corridor connection between the trains, then tell me that the tickets should be checked on train.......

Even if there were corridor connectors, at least 2 people checking tickets on a 8 car service would seem sensible. TPE sometimes have a conductor and an AFC on a 3 car 185.

 

[Antman]

I imagine if you report it and claim it's a fire hazard the response you'll get is in the event of a fire they'll be automatically open. However, in the event of a fire it's possible passengers will see the fire before the fire alarm goes off.

In todays H&S climate I would have thought it should be a requirement to have a member of staff at the barriers all the time they are operational?

 

[Senex]

Leaving aside issues of revenue protection, I'd say for the average passenger barriers are just a nuisance. I only realised how much I dislike them after experiencing rail travel in Germany where they don't seem to use them.

Well said!