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No, it absolutely isn't railway only thing but the scale of the problem does appear to be bigger (generally) on the railway than other industries though this varies hugely by many factors, such as by TOC, geographical area and more.
But, for sure, the scale of the problem - which we will never agree on - is far greater than it should be, at least at some TOCs / routes.
You are making points based on proportions and numbers which you don't have the numbers to be making and arguing as if they are fact. You have anecdotal observations for one area of one TOC.
As I said above, I don't understand this obsession over exact figures, nor do I have any idea what you have in mind regarding how such figures could actually be obtained and what exactly you would be measuring? This is getting more and more bizarre.
They are obtained by the TOCs, so the numbers definitely exist, I've seen them and in my career been measured against them on multiple occasions. So either you have some sort of access to those figures and you can make the statements you are making from a position backed up by actual facts. Or you don't and you are doing this on your opinion and trying to present it as fact.
So, to be clear, Aslef deem it would be disrespectful to strike during the mourning period, but not disrespectful for a strike to be revealed during the mourning period; that is their logic, right?
Maybe to some train drivers (and other Union sympathisers) that seems logical, but to me, I don't see that logic. You are of course entitled to your views but I doubt the general public are going to be on board with this. Not that the Union is interested in that of course!
You may not be making things up, but you are putting a very big spin on them in order to present a version of events.
That the media deem the postponement to have been a mark of respect and reported it as such is not the same thing as the unions themselves saying that this was the reason. What you've done is to conflate the two in order to try and paint the unions as being inconsistent and irresponsible in order to use it to underscore your broader point about the perniciousness of the trade union movement and the immorality of industrial action.
It's not the case that I consider announcing a strike as disrespectful; did I say that? If you think I did, I think there must have been a misunderstanding.
It's not always necessary to use the specific word for the meaning to be adequately clear. But OK, if you don't consider it disrespectful, just what is your objection to today's news?
@yorkie - I’ve been reading your posts for years and we've met on one or two occasions. You’ve always seemed like a reasonable bloke to me, however I have absolutely no idea what you are babbling on about in this thread!
Not everything is some convoluted anti-passenger plot. Rail staff, at least the ones I know, do not like cancelling trains or causing disruption. The vast majority of us will go out of our way to assist any passenger if we can. You are talking like a paranoid schizophrenic who believes that the world is against them. The absolute tosh that you are spouting about staff attitudes and what you perceive the psychology of union leaders to be is beyond belief. Frankly, you haven’t got a clue, and you persist in being extremely insulting to rail workers for no discernible reason. Never mind your “friend at TPE” - they are not, and cannot be, representative of an entire company, industry or union.
I’m not sure when you started upon this outrageously over the top anti-union tirade, but I’d just question why you are so opposed to your fellow working class men and women fighting for a fair deal for themselves? You’re actively participating in a race to the bottom in British society whilst the 1% are laughing all the way to the bank.
If you don’t like strikes, and if you don’t agree with what I’m saying above, that’s totally fair enough. However, I thought you were at least grown up enough not to use such patronising and childish arguments to make your point, as you’ve been doing liberally in this thread.
You keep repeating the same things but you don't appear to have much knowledge of the situation at TPE yourself, so I don't understand how or why you are so keen to claim that those of us who use the route regularly are wrong.
I don't know why you are telling me this? Yes, the argument we are embroiled in is over one TOC; I was responding to a TPE Guard who was making a statement - in disagreement with a fellow member of railway staff - which I felt should be robustly challenged, given numerous recent experiences (not just my own) travelling with the company. I challenged that post on that basis.
You've criticised passengers but you wouldn't like it if someone tried to accuse you of being against all passengers, just because you dislike the actions of those whose behaviour isn't up to expectations, would you?
They are obtained by the TOCs, so the numbers definitely exist, I've seen them and in my career been measured against them on multiple occasions. So either you have some sort of access to those figures and you can make the statements you are making from a position backed up by actual facts. Or you don't and you are doing this on your opinion and trying to present it as fact.
Um... Well, you did say this earlier. Are you now going to retract this statement?
You may not be making things up, but you are putting a very big spin on them in order to present a version of events.
That the media deem the postponement to have been a mark of respect and reported it as such is not the same thing as the unions themselves saying that this was the reason. What you've done is to conflate the two in order to try and paint the unions as being inconsistent and irresponsible in order to use it to underscore your broader point about the perniciousness of the trade union movement and the immorality of industrial action.
A planned stoppage by Aslef on 15 September was called off as a mark of respect following the Queen's death, but now drivers at 12 train firms will go ahead with industrial action in October, disrupting travel to and from the Tory conference.
news.sky.com
A planned stoppage by Aslef on 15 September was called off as a mark of respect following the Queen's death, but now drivers at 12 train firms will go ahead with industrial action in October, disrupting travel to and from the Tory conference....
It's not always necessary to use the specific word for the meaning to be adequately clear. But OK, if you don't consider it disrespectful, just what is your objection to today's news?
I am pointing out the inconsistency and hypocrisy of the apparent/reported differing approaches to the two strikes, given what the media have reported as the reasoning.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
@yorkie - I’ve been reading your posts for years and we've met on one or two occasions. You’ve always seemed like a reasonable bloke to me, however I have absolutely no idea what you are babbling on about in this thread!
It's disappointing you are using such language, but as I have explained, I strongly objected to the post by @Fokx which appeared to be dismissing the points made by @SuperNova, especially in light of the claims regarding the proactiveness of their colleagues, given how this completely contradicts recent experiences of myself and others I know who use the route.
The vast majority of us will go out of our way to assist any passenger if we can. You are talking like a paranoid schizophrenic who believes that the world is against them.
I am not claiming the world is against me; I have pointed out the reality actually experienced by passengers, compared to what @Fokx wrote in their criticism of @SuperNova's points. This has resulted in some posters making all sorts of bogus claims that I am saying things I never said or that I believe things I don't believe in.
The absolute tosh that you are spouting about staff attitudes and what you perceive the psychology of union leaders to be is beyond belief. Frankly, you haven’t got a clue, and you persist in being extremely insulting to rail workers for no discernible reason. Never mind your “friend at TPE” - they are not, and cannot be, representative of an entire company, industry or union.
I've not insulted anyone; that allegation is completely false and I ask you to retract it.
I am not saying one person is representative of an entire company; I never said that at all. There is a huge range of attitudes and behaviours at the company towards the job, from being incredibly proactive and going well beyond expectations right down to doing the absolute minimum and not being seen at all at any point in the journey.
I’m not sure when you started upon this outrageously over the top anti-union tirade, but I’d just question why you are so opposed to your fellow working class men and women fighting for a fair deal for themselves? You’re actively participating in a race to the bottom in British society whilst the 1% are laughing all the way to the bank.
Remind me, what is the salary of your grade? How is that a 'race to the bottom'? You are the one bringing class into this; how do you define the class?
If you don’t like strikes, and if you don’t agree with what I’m saying above, that’s totally fair enough. However, I thought you were at least grown up enough not to use such patronising and childish arguments to make your point, as you’ve been doing liberally in this thread.
I won’t comment on the last part because it’s clear the decision has already been made by this government and the previous transport secretary, no matter how valuable the grade actually is, or passenger perception/desire.
Why don't the unions suspend strikes in October 2022 (as they did given the Queen's death) so that they can discover the attitude of the new Transport Secretary who replaced Mr Shapps?
These strikes are hugely inconvenient for my wife and I as visitors from overseas.
All they do is ensure railwaymen and women have more pay docked to add to some days without pay already, and more importantly, threaten the future of your UK rail industry (as yorkie has said IIRC, although I've not read every page of this).
Given the government through its Transport Department has made some sort of an offer - a compromise - why not accept that? It won't be perfect and I appreciate that inflation has taken off, but a wage-price spiral in any economy can be disastrous for all but the most affluent 20 per cent.
If these strikes continue, perhaps the government will permanently replace some rail routes with road coaches/buses, so rail staff will be the losers.
Why don't the unions suspend strikes in October 2022 (as they did given the Queen's death) so that they can discover the attitude of the new Transport Secretary who replaced Mr Shapps?
These strikes are hugely inconvenient for my wife and I as visitors from overseas.
All they do is ensure railwaymen and women have more pay docked to add to some days without pay already, and more importantly, threaten the future of your UK rail industry (as yorkie has said IIRC, although I've not read every page of this).
Given the government through its Transport Department has made some sort of an offer - a compromise - why not accept that? It won't be perfect and I appreciate that inflation has taken off, but a wage-price spiral in any economy can be disastrous for all but the most affluent 20 per cent.
If these strikes continue, perhaps the government will permanently replace some rail routes with road coaches/buses, so rail staff will be the losers.
The "deal" involves watering down the terms and conditions of the maintenance staff of which PWAY I have spoken to would be taking a cut of around 8k. That's why its not been accepted
All they do is ensure railwaymen and women have more pay docked to add to some days without pay already, and more importantly, threaten the future of your UK rail industry (as yorkie has said IIRC, although I've not read every page of this).
Why don't the unions suspend strikes in October 2022 (as they did given the Queen's death) so that they can discover the attitude of the new Transport Secretary who replaced Mr Shapps?
I suspect they are hoping the Secretary of State for Transport moves first. Suspending strike action will defeat that object. The idea of the strike is to force the pace of discussions.
How long before bus and coach drivers are also on strike? There have been a number of examples already, in London and West Yorkshire and there is a shortage of drivers in any case.
As it happens the pay deal was accepted by the group of staff I am in, and it will be arriving next month. It has been funded by changing what many of us do for a job and by a reduction of posts of around 10%.
The point is that by losing some pay this year, they make up for it in future years as the increase they get now becomes their new base level of pay.
I suspect they are hoping the Secretary of State for Transport moves first. Suspending strike action will defeat that object. The idea of the strike is to force the pace of discussions.
How long before bus and coach drivers are also on strike? There have been a number of examples already, in London and West Yorkshire and there is a shortage of drivers in any case.
Has there been a compromise? According to previous reports, the Government wants significant 'nasties' in return for no significant pay increase.
Pretty much the whole public sector is heading for industrial action. I was at one meeting where seniors said that Ministers had asked civil servants to plan how to deal with industrial action and were apparently taken aback when it was pointed out to them that many of the civil servants they were asking to do the planning would themselves likely be on strike....
With respect, I'm genuinely shocked that some people can be so angry by the thought of the public wanting the railway they partially fund through fares (and taxes for LNER/Northern) to function.
With respect, I'm genuinely shocked that some people can be so angry by the thought of the public wanting the railway they partially fund through fares (and taxes for LNER/Northern) to function.
With respect l am genuinely shocked that you believe an unhappy workforce can take action to show that which doesn't impact on the public. Expect LOTS more strike action across the board in the public sector.
As a railway worker, a union member and someone who is walking out on strike - do you expect those staff - nowhere near the 'top' - to work on their weekends for nothing?
What do you mean by 'work for nothing'? If you mean not being paid for working, that's illegal. If you mean you think weekend working should incur a higher wage, why? Many places are now open 7 days a week and it's only a small number of working aged people who attend churches on Sundays. While for some people working Saturday and having Monday off might not be their preferred working arrangement, for others the reverse is true. The lack of a decent public transport service on Sundays is now one of the main differences between Saturday and Sunday, the other being restrictions on Sunday trading hours.
Surely the way of causing maximum disruption for the Tory party conference is for different strike days for different operators. Avanti, LNR and XC on the day before it starts and the day after it finishes and WMT during the conference. I can't see disruption to local trains outside Birmingham having any impact. Conservative supporters are probably the ones who tend drive or get taxis to stations with direct Intercity services e.g. the people filling the huge car park at Crewe.
Rail Strike 1st October
My good lady and myself are going to a concert at the o2 on the evening of 30th September travelling on Thameslink from Hertfordshire to London Bridge, then tube from there.
Am I right in thinking that the NR services would start “winding“ on the Friday evening so that the return journey very late in the evening could be a problem?
Any advise/ thoughts would be appreciated.
Thank you
Am I right in thinking that the NR services would start “winding“ on the Friday evening so that the return journey very late in the evening could be a problem?
TPE is knackered. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Morale is shot to bits, largely as a result of what is acknowledged at all levels to be management failings.
I love my job and I would like to say my resume regarding how I approach it is glowing - yet when the place I work at has a "wobble" (usually through lack of working trains) it's fair to say I struggle to get out of bed in the morning and come in when I know it's going to be a howler for a whole week. TPE is a shambles every day.
I've had my fair share of abuse from TPE customers over the last few years who are at the end of their tether from being randomly stranded every day so I hate to think what it is like for the train crew.
The management need to work with their staff to rebuild their company and they need the freedom to do so.
As for the strikes, they are what they are. I didn't vote for them as I was happy with my pay and we had recently agreed a DfT sanctioned contract revision to sort out things like Sunday working. The Shapps approach showing that that was of no relevance at all, and that his Department was still out to get us changed my view entirely and if asked again I would vote yes.
Putting the passenger first is at the heart of nearly everything I do - but not at the cost of my own bills and enjoyment of work. I do not want to work in a role modelled after Lumo.
It depends on what sort of role they are doing. Some do, some don't. The higher up the chain, the less likely you are to do so and people will just regularly exceed their booked 35/37/40 hours to get stuff done. And it's seen as normal, just like in any other industry.
There are very senior people - in control and in certain frontline roles to name a few - who regularly work weekends and that is just part and parcel of their roles.
Right - this is getting a bit heated and starting to revisit the same union arguments we’ve had a thousand times, so let’s leave this here. People on both sides aren’t going to change their views. Thanks all.
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