Are TfW services treated differently by GBR?

[Dr Day]

moderator note-split from

How many TfW services don't go to Wales?

Hi all, I was recently wondering how many TfW services don't serve any stations in Wales. The Crewe-Chester shuttle jumps to mind, are there any others?

www.railforums.co.uk

People seem to forget that the TfW operation is officially Wales & Borders, and its remit is not solely to serve Wales.

Indeed, and some of the assumptions on other threads regarding TfW services being treated differently by GBR need careful scrutiny.

But that is probably better discussed in a dedicated thread.

 

[tfw756rider]

It's my understanding that although Great British Railways (GBR) will take over Avanti/West Coast Partnership, c2c, Chiltern, CrossCountry, East Midlands, Govia Thameslink Railway, Greater Anglia, Great Western Railway and West Midlands (and the already "nationalised" in England London North Eastern Railway, Northern, Southeastern, South Western Railway and TransPennine),

GBR will not take over Arriva Rail London (Overground), Caledonian Sleeper, Elizabeth line, Merseyrail, ScotRail or Transport for Wales (TfW) (nor the open-access operators Eurostar, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Lumo).

So it's not just TfW services that will be treated differently by GBR to what they'll have direct control of (assuming that's what you mean?)

 

[The exile]

It's my understanding that although Great British Railways (GBR) will take over Avanti/West Coast Partnership, c2c, Chiltern, CrossCountry, East Midlands, Govia Thameslink Railway, Greater Anglia, Great Western Railway and West Midlands (and the already "nationalised" in England London North Eastern Railway, Northern, Southeastern, South Western Railway and TransPennine),

GBR will not take over Arriva Rail London (Overground), Caledonian Sleeper, Elizabeth line, Merseyrail, ScotRail or Transport for Wales (TfW) (nor the open-access operators Eurostar, Grand Central, Heathrow Express, Hull Trains and Lumo).

So it's not just TfW services that will be treated differently by GBR to what they'll have direct control of (assuming that's what you mean?)

Although there may have to be some kind of different regime in place covering TfW-operated services outside of Wales (particularly those that operate entirely outside Wales) and those inside Wales. Either they get ceded to (and run direct by) GBR or remain with TfW for operational purposes but under the direct control of GBR. It would clearly not be right for GBR to have no say in the operation of the local service between Crewe and Chester / Shrewsbury - or indeed for anyone other than GBR to have any say beyond ensuring that paths still existed for longer distance trains on those routes.

 

[Zomboid]

GBR will also take on what Network Rail does, so will be involved with things like the timetable planning and day to day operations for routes over which it does not run any trains.

I've no idea how that'll work in practice.

 

[tfw756rider]

Although there may have to be some kind of different regime in place covering TfW-operated services outside of Wales (particularly those that operate entirely outside Wales) and those inside Wales. Either they get ceded to (and run direct by) GBR or remain with TfW for operational purposes but under the direct control of GBR. It would clearly not be right for GBR to have no say in the operation of the local service between Crewe and Chester / Shrewsbury - or indeed for anyone other than GBR to have any say beyond ensuring that paths still existed for longer distance trains on those routes.

Good points, will be interesting for sure to see what happens.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jul 2025 ==

GBR will also take on what Network Rail does, so will be involved with things like the timetable planning and day to day operations for routes over which it does not run any trains.

I've no idea how that'll work in practice.

Very true, I was thinking of mentioning that but decided to stick to the Train Operating Company stuff.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I suspect a lot of mayoral authority services will be stripped out of GBR in a similar way to Merseyrail in due course, particularly in Manchester and the West Mids. Control of stations is almost certainly going to be handed over to the Mayor in Manchester.

Of course, GBR is allowed to bid to operate the Merseyrail concession if they feel it appropriate, and I suspect GBR would be allowed to bid for any other services which are tendered.

GBR could bid for Elizabeth line or London Overground too, if they like. Could be quite competitively priced too, if they already have the structures set up needed to operate a TOC already.

It's also possible that you might find TfW subcontracting certain services to GBR where it is convenient for both parties. I imagine there will be a desire to see cooperation and therefore passenger benefits.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect a lot of mayoral authority services will be stripped out of GBR in a similar way to Merseyrail in due course, particularly in Manchester and the West Mids. Control of stations is almost certainly going to be handed over to the Mayor in Manchester.

The operation of trains will surely still have to remain with GBR even if revenue risk moves to the Mayor. I can't see any advantage to the operation being done by anyone else even if the Mayor takes control of their specification. It is the same as open access. Railway services need to be centrally planned to best use the infrastructure.

 

[The Planner]

GBR will also take on what Network Rail does, so will be involved with things like the timetable planning and day to day operations for routes over which it does not run any trains.

I've no idea how that'll work in practice.

I'm not convinced there will be a lot of difference.

 

[A S Leib]

The same guaranteed ticket acceptance as with LNER and TransPennine Express between Manchester, Manchester Airport, Crewe and Chester currently lacking feels like TfW Rail being treated differently in ways passengers might notice, although I'd expect that (and ScotRail / LNER / eventually CrossCountry acceptance north of Edinburgh) to happen at some point.

 

[The exile]

I suspect a lot of mayoral authority services will be stripped out of GBR in a similar way to Merseyrail in due course, particularly in Manchester and the West Mids. Control of stations is almost certainly going to be handed over to the Mayor in Manchester.

This only really works where the operation is as near as makes no difference standalone (as Merseyrail is and the T&W metro almost is). Once you have services crossing mayoral boundaries it has the potential to get very messy indeed.

 

[A S Leib]

This only really works where the operation is as near as makes no difference standalone (as Merseyrail is and the T&W metro almost is). Once you have services crossing mayoral boundaries it has the potential to get very messy indeed.

I think the Hazel Grove and Rose Hill Marple to Piccadilly services are the only ones entirely in Greater Manchester (apart from Metrolink), although I'd suspect services mostly in Greater Manchester or already treated in its area like Alderley Edge stoppers, Piccadilly to Hadfield and Buxton, and Headbolt Lane and Rochdale to Blackburn would go to TfGM / Bee Network as well.

As you said, that can get messy in parts. St. Helens becoming part of Merseyrail by Liverpool to Wigan services makes sense, but I don't know if Lancashire's mayor would appreciate not running any services to Blackpool (North), regardless of the benefits of keeping services through St. Helens or Bolton with the same operator.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

It's also possible that you might find TfW subcontracting certain services to GBR where it is convenient for both parties. I imagine there will be a desire to see cooperation and therefore passenger benefits.

TfW already has mechinisms in place to ensure that the local authorities on the English side of the border have input into things like timetable planning. I'm not sure there'd be any advantage in Salop, Herefordshire etc inputting via GBR rather than making direct representations.

As you say, there's no reason for TfW not to have a good relationship with GBR particularly since they already work very closely with NR with joint-teams managing lines like the Cambrian where TfW is the sole operator.

 

[N1]

If only there was some kind of organisation that could be created to manage cross boundary services in the North West of England around Manchester, Liverpool, Cheshire and Lancashire. Perhaps even a committee formed of relevant local transport authorities and operators, to jointly operate them?

 

[The Mercian]

I think it’s quite embarrassing personally for English local
Governance in the Border counties to have many of their services run for them by the Welsh Govt. I realise this is historical and is often driven by long established working practices and routes that have evolved over decades and the franchise being set up as Wales and Borders but it seems to me that services on the Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe line being solely in England and run by the Welsh Govt is quite frankly bizarre. Fair play to the Welsh Govt and TFW that they Don’t seem to ignore the over the border stuff. I’d be interested to know what Glocs, Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire residents feel about it.

It’ll be interesting to see if GBR do assert any control over the English stuff in the current arrangements.

 

[weeklycommuter]

At present Transport for Wales manages all 223 stations in Wales and the following 25 stations in England

Chester; Frodsham; Helsby; Heswall; Nantwich;
Neston; Runcorn East; Upton (Merseyside); Wrenbury; Lydney;
Broome; Bucknell; Church Stretton; Craven Arms; Gobowen;
Hereford; Hopton Heath; Knighton; Leominster; Ludlow;
Prees; Shrewsbury; Wem; Whitchurch (Shropshire); Yorton;

I do not know which organisations will manage these stations in future.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I think it’s quite embarrassing personally for English local Governance in the Border counties to have many of their services run for them by the Welsh Govt.

Surely no more embarrassing than the UK Govt supervising the GWR, Avanti and Cross Country franchises, all of which operate services in Wales?

I suspect that customers on both sides of the border care more about services being convenient, comfortable and reliable than the company branding or lines of accountability.

That's not to say there won't be some tidying-up. I suspect Wxm - L'pool (via Bidston) will end up being operated by Mersyrail once it becomes a through service and the Chester-Crewe shuttle is a bit of an anomaly.

 

[NCT]

There does need to be a formalised and consistent relationship between GBR and its customer authorities.

The Manchester / Chester - Shrewsbury - Hereford situation is different to TfL and Merseytravel in that those English residents do not vote for the Welsh government who run and fund their services.

It might be that GBR sets the service level and contracts TfWR to run the services. I'd be tempted to write in the conditions that within England the announcements shouldn't be Welsh first (the Crewe - Chester ought not to be have Welsh at all ...). I'd almost go as far as saying things like Elizabeth line service levels between Iver and Reading ought to be specified by GBR and contracted to TfL.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I expect very little will change in all honesty.

We already have the situation whereby Transport for Wales (Welsh Gov nationalised) are providing the service to a number of English settlements. So that isn't going to change. The infrastructure is already owned/maintained by a UK Gov nationalised organisation (Network Rail). Various UK and English authorities (ORR, DfT etc.) already have an input on service provision within England. That's not going to change either.

 

[NCT]

In the current world, is there a memorandum between DfT and TfW on service levels within England? Or some other formalised / statutory process?

 

[Lewisham2221]

In the current world, is there a memorandum between DfT and TfW on service levels within England? Or some other formalised / statutory process?

Basically, yes.

The Welsh Government website has some of the related documents:

Rail franchise: Wales and Borders agreements | GOV.WALES

The formal agreements making Welsh Government responsible for rail franchises in Wales. Describes money we will receive to support the franchises and the minimum standards of services.

www.gov.wales

Essentially, UK Gov provide Welsh Gov with some funding towards the English services and consequently get some input on the service provision within the "and Borders" part of the operation.

 

[Bevan Price]

I suspect a lot of mayoral authority services will be stripped out of GBR in a similar way to Merseyrail in due course, particularly in Manchester and the West Mids. Control of stations is almost certainly going to be handed over to the Mayor in Manchester.

Of course, GBR is allowed to bid to operate the Merseyrail concession if they feel it appropriate, and I suspect GBR would be allowed to bid for any other services which are tendered.

GBR could bid for Elizabeth line or London Overground too, if they like. Could be quite competitively priced too, if they already have the structures set up needed to operate a TOC already.

It's also possible that you might find TfW subcontracting certain services to GBR where it is convenient for both parties. I imagine there will be a desire to see cooperation and therefore passenger benefits.

Mayors may hope to specify local service levels, but I suspect that sometimes, paths are not available to operate everything they would want. There is always going to be a finite number of trains per hour that can use each route and station.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. If the DfT objected strongly to a change affecting a service to an English station, TfW would be very unlikely to go ahead with it. In general this appears to manifest itself as mutual agreement on any major changes, and obviously mostly there haven't been many major changes so far.

 

[WAB]

At present Transport for Wales manages all 223 stations in Wales and the following 25 stations in England

Chester; Frodsham; Helsby; Heswall; Nantwich;
Neston; Runcorn East; Upton (Merseyside); Wrenbury; Lydney;
Broome; Bucknell; Church Stretton; Craven Arms; Gobowen;
Hereford; Hopton Heath; Knighton; Leominster; Ludlow;
Prees; Shrewsbury; Wem; Whitchurch (Shropshire); Yorton;

I do not know which organisations will manage these stations in future.

I doubt it'll change. It makes sense for stations to be managed by an operator with a presence in the area and which provides the majority of the services to the station. Bringing in GBR management for the TfW stations in England would be inefficient and not bring any tangible benefits.

Remember that TfW and GBR will have a very close relationship throughout their Wales & Borders operations.