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Are Police immune from being held accountable??

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meridian2

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'Not guilty' is exactly that; a jury or independent panel was unable to find a defendant guilty, ergo, conforming to our most sacrosanct of jurisprudence: 'innocent until proven guilty'.
Your statement: 'not guilty is not a verdict of innocence' seeks, and fails, to contradict this.
 
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Smudger105e

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'Not guilty' is exactly that; a jury or independent panel was unable to find a defendant guilty, ergo, conforming to our most sacrosanct of jurisprudence: 'innocent until proven guilty'.
Your statement: 'not guilty is not a verdict of innocence' seeks, and fails, to contradict this.
Then why is are the options 'guilty or not guilty' and not 'guilty or innocent'?
 

meridian2

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Because it is presumed a defendant is innocent if he's acquitted, or 'not guilty'. The problem is it contradicts your own opinion of what 'not guilty' refers to.
 

Smudger105e

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The problem is it contradicts your own opinion of what 'not guilty' refers to.

Indeed it does. BUT if not guilty and innocent are the same, why is innocent not used at the conclusion of a trial? Surely it is because there is a possibility that the acquittal may have been decided on because there was insufficient evidence to prove a case beyond all reasonable doubt.
 

meridian2

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You're correct in stating that 'not guilty' doesn't equate to 'innocent', but that's only your opinion. My opinion, and I hope it's shared by others, is that 'bot guilty' is sufficient reason for me to draw the presumption of innocence. After all, these are the supposed higher echelons of the law and being not versed in legal matters, I tend to defer to their judgment.
 

Smudger105e

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And we thereby return to the start of this thread where some feel that a not guilty for the police officer who shot Mr Rodney meant that he was innocent, and others who feel that a not guilty did not equate to an innocent verdict...
 

reb0118

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I won't translate "yer maw" as it is rather rude, and for that I do apologise, in essence it means I emphatically do not agree with your implied statement that you are not innocent of an alleged crime if a jury finds you innocent. This is one of the corner stones of our legal system - would you prefer a Diplock system?

Now, I realise that juries don't always get it right and also that the Diplock system was introduced due to perceived intimidation of juries in Northern Ireland and/or fears of perverse verdicts.


Then why is are the options 'guilty or not guilty' and not 'guilty or innocent'?

This is because you are innocent until found guilty. If you are found not guilty you are not declared innocent because your status has not changed - you were innocent before the trial and remain so afterwards.

Historically in Scotland we had a subtly different take on verdicts as it was up to the Crown to prove the case against the pannel (accused). The charge was either Proven or Not Proven and the accused guilt or innocence was technically immaterial. The accused did not have to offer a defence. However a jury in a certain case felt that not only had the Crown failed to prove the case but that the accused in their opinion had no case to answer so they returned the verdict of Not Guilty. That is why we have three verdicts in Scotland.

To get back to the original topic. Most right minded people will accept that the police in these countries are accountable for their actions and do come under intense scrutiny with regard to their actions. I believe that the man on the Clapham Omnibus agrees with me also.
 

DaleCooper

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This is because you are innocent until found guilty. If you are found not guilty you are not declared innocent because your status has not changed - you were innocent before the trial and remain so afterwards.

A very clear explanation of the situation, thanks.
 

Smudger105e

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I emphatically do not agree with your implied statement that you are not innocent of an alleged crime if a jury finds you innocent.

I hope I didn't imply that statement. Let me make it clear, just because you are found not guilty by a Jury, does not neessarily mean that you are innocent. It means that the Jury, for a number of possible reasons, decided that they could not find you guilty.

Also please note that you may, of course be innocent, but innocent people being taken to Court is probably a rare occurrence.

Finally, I am not saying that the Jury system is flawed.
 

DaveNewcastle

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You're correct in stating that 'not guilty' doesn't equate to 'innocent', but that's only your opinion. My opinion, and I hope it's shared by others, is that 'bot guilty' is sufficient reason for me to draw the presumption of innocence. After all, these are the supposed higher echelons of the law and being not versed in legal matters, I tend to defer to their judgment.

There is a very sound basis for making a distinction between "not guilty" and "innocence".
The first is a finding of a Court (with or without a Jury) on a specific allegation and under a specific statute or tort, and supported by specified authourities in Case Law.
The second is an opinion which may be determined by the parties concerned, or other commentators or professionals, and which relates to the incident or matter which has been accused, and where the facts are tested against a reference (which may be legal statutes, tort, case law, moral codes, public opinion, media polls, friends' opinions, religious codes or practice, trade union codes or practice, scientific evidence, pressure group pronouncements or flavour-of-the-month popular opinion).

It should be easy to see that a person who is NOT innocent under a raft of opinionated tests which are not based on a test by a Court of Law might also fail to be found 'Not Guilty' by such a Court if the neccesary evidence is not forthcoming or persuasive. And equally and conversely, that a person who is demonstrably innocent in the opinion of such a raft of opinionated tests may, technically, be found to be 'Guilty' in respect of a very specific application of the evidence to some Statue or Case Law.

I have seen some heart-wrenching judgements (some in the last few weeks) in which the Court has been compelled to reach a certain decision based on the Evidence and the Statutes or Case Law but where they very obviously wished that other evidence could be forthcoming to enable them to reach another decision. It is astonishing to see senior Judges assisting claimants as far as they do in order to help them to avoid the inevitable finding of Guilt. Or to see other senior Judges (notably, Thomas LCJ) criticise Police forces for failing to comply with the basic requirements of justice, and then refusing to give judgement on the matter before them for want of evidence.

The key distinction is this:
'Innocence' is a statement of opinion, based of the available facts, and which may be determined by a wide range of people and bodies, including those involved.
'Not Guilty' is a finding of a Court of Lw, based only on the evidence presented to it and the statutes and authorities presented to it.

I hope this helps to illustrate just some of the ways in which 'Not Guilty' and 'Innocent' can differ.

[For our next session, we could look at the differences between guilt and culpability ! ]
 
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DaveNewcastle

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When is the lecture? :lol:
Just as soon as I can arrange some decent catering!






Here's a hint at the extent of innapropriate Police behaviour, condoned by superior officers, but about which they vigourously insist on remaining silent, under their policy of Neither Confirm Nor Deny (NCND) :- http://policespiesoutoflives.org.uk/

Purely by way of an illustrative example, the question of whether Metropolitan Police Service officer John Dines entered into a long-term intimate relationship with a feminist activist in order to obtain undercover information about the future activities of 'his partner' and her associates will be met with an NCND reply, as would similar questions about similar male Officers strategically entering into relationships with other suspected female activists in the course of their undercover duties.

It is worrying that challenges to Police activities which have been responded to under the NCND policy have not, to date, been brought to any accountability (despite the unpublished apologies and the offers of substantial payments from the Police Force(s) concerned).

[Just to be absolutely clear, I have no reason to believe that the Met Officer named above or any other Police Officer has ever behaved innapropriately; only the unsubstantiated statements of the victims, the unpublished apology from the Police Force; and, confirmation that at least one of the offered payments from the Police Force has actually been paid - with conditions. But under the NCND policy there is, of course, no conclusive confirmation of any wrong-doing.]
 
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