Are Piccadilly and Northern trains not being washed anymore?

[thomalex]

These trains seem to be getting increasingly more brown externally and don't look like they've received a wash in many months. I thought this was something particular to the Piccadilly trains initially and maybe the train wash (I presume they have one similar to an automatic car wash) was broken but the Northern trains are even more filthy.

By comparison the Bakerloo despite being pretty ropey internally do seem to be reasonably clean externally and are at least being washed and similar with the Central. The District/Circle/Met trains are the best. I know TfL are strapped for cash but you would expect trains to receive a wash every few months at least. Anyone know what the story is here?

 

[WizCastro197]

The deep level tubes seem to be getting increasingly more brown externally and don't look like they've received a wash in many months. I thought this was something particular to the Piccadilly trains initially and maybe the train wash (I presume they have one similar to an automatic car wash) was broken but the Northern trains are even more filthy.

By comparison the Bakerloo despite being pretty ropey internally do seem to be clean externally and are at least being washed and similar with the Central. Anyone know what the story is here?

I assume they do get washed regularly. Perhaps like Eurostar they are pushed through tunnels with grime and perhaps more dirty air (is that even a thing?) therefore they look less well off.

 

[matt_world2004]

Could be grit from platforms and whatever they put on tracks to stop poor rail adhesion in winter probably don't notice on the bakerloo line because of how poor the bodywork is.

 

[rebmcr]

If there are staffing shortages at the depots, the cosmetic (rather than mechanical) tasks might be the first in line for reduction.

 

[Hadders]

TfL is broke. Washing train exteriors less often saves money.

 

[WizCastro197]

TfL is broke. Washing train exteriors less often saves money.

In addition, I don’t think the majority of the travelling public care about whether the trains are spotless as long as they get them from A-B. Better to save money this way, it isn’t a huge inconvenience either.

 

[Thirteen]

I would imagine the deep level Tube stock gets dirty a lot more frequently than the SSL stock does due to being in tunnels but I imagine it's also due to the age of the stock as well. I've noticed the B92 DLR stock isn't as nice compared to the B07s.

 

[Lewlew]

Bakerloo has “booked washes” throughout the day. Most Stonebridge Park terminators will run through the wash and reverse in the depot. Some will just reverse on the depot reception roads and not wash.

S8s on the other hand rarely ever see a wash.

Central line will often run through a wash when stabling at Hainault or when entering service at West Ruislip from Ruislip depot.

When I say “a wash” I’m talking about an automated machine that the train will go through like a car wash. Not hand washing etc.

 

[Dstock7080]

When I say “a wash” I’m talking about an automated machine that the train will go through like a car wash. Not hand washing etc.

Which aren’t operational in cold and frosty weather and we’ve had quite a few days in January where this wasn’t possible.

 

[bramling]

These trains seem to be getting increasingly more brown externally and don't look like they've received a wash in many months. I thought this was something particular to the Piccadilly trains initially and maybe the train wash (I presume they have one similar to an automatic car wash) was broken but the Northern trains are even more filthy.

By comparison the Bakerloo despite being pretty ropey internally do seem to be reasonably clean externally and are at least being washed and similar with the Central. The District/Circle/Met trains are the best. I know TfL are strapped for cash but you would expect trains to receive a wash every few months at least. Anyone know what the story is here?

The Northern has two washing plants at Morden which are normally used when a train enters service. As Morden provided the highest number of trains for the Northern Line service, every train should go through one of these every 2-3 days on average, though of course individual trains may go longer depending on how things work out in practice.

Be aware most washers don’t work in cold weather, and I presume Morden is no different, so this won’t have helped with the way the weather has been recently, and also with plenty of salt about.

 

[Basil Jet]

When I say “a wash” I’m talking about an automated machine that the train will go through like a car wash. Not hand washing etc.

Have any enthusiast specials ever gone through them? It sounds like fun.

I have no special knowledge, but from reading this I imagine that money is not being saved by refusing to wash trains (because such a saving would presumably be applied across all lines), but by refusing to repair the Northern and Piccadilly washes, and the other lines will presumably become dirty as soon as their washes break.

 

[Goldfish62]

Northern line stock has been filthy for a while, not just during the winter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==

In addition, I don’t think the majority of the travelling public care about whether the trains are spotless as long as they get them from A-B. Better to save money this way, it isn’t a huge inconvenience either.

It doesn't leave a good impression. I remember well the run-down feel of the Underground in the 1980s. I don't want to see a return to that.

Friends of mine from abroad have often remarked how clean the Underground is compared to their Metro systems, so people DO notice.

 

[Mikey C]

Northern line stock has been filthy for a while, not just during the winter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Feb 2023 ==


It doesn't leave a good impression. I remember well the run-down feel of the Underground in the 1980s. I don't want to see a return to that.

Friends of mine from abroad have often remarked how clean the Underground is compared to their Metro systems, so people DO notice.

It's a slippery slope. Dirty trains sends a message that the system doesn't care about the trains, which sends a poor message and "encourages" anti-social behaviour.

Wouldn't train cleaning be covered by the Northern Line PFI contract with Alstom?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Talking of the big railway , some wash plants automatically shut down in freezing weather. Or , of course - wash plants may be defective.

It depends on management spotting , or being aware of such problems and acting on them .......as a manager I took a keen interest in train appearance and kept a close eye on this (including prevention of graffiti vandalism) - used to annoy the Control by asking for lists of overnight train washing. It was resourced in any case , and no excuse for not doing it .....certainly not getting the nightshifts to skimp on their job.

There are no rewards however , of washing trains , only to find you have a yardfull of sets with frozen up doors. (which then have to be manually de-iced) - so missing the odd cycle is permissible , provided you catch up later with heavy cleans , sometimes "hand bashing" if really neccessary.

(observe the state of buses at this time of year - maybe not so bad in London , but generally bad in the local area) ....

 

[Goldfish62]

It's a slippery slope. Dirty trains sends a message that the system doesn't care about the trains, which sends a poor message and "encourages" anti-social behaviour.

Wouldn't train cleaning be covered by the Northern Line PFI contract with Alstom?

Totally agree.

And yes, I believe the tyres covered by the contract.

 

[Mawkie]

This wash is disused.

The Picadilly Line only has one functioning wash, and when it's freezing, as it often is at Cockfosters, it doesn't work. If it breaks, it might require parts that may not be readily available. Recently a train had a minor derailment in the depot, so caused a few issues, the most minor of which was not being able to wash the trains.


This wash is in use.


The red led board here says "Partial Wash" (can't see due to led strobing), the other option is "Full Wash". Note: the driver has no control over whether a train gets a wash.

 

[rebmcr]

The red led board here says "Partial Wash" (can't see due to led strobing), the other option is "Full Wash".

Presumably, "Partial Wash" omits the wax & dry program.

 

[Central]

There’s supposed to be a exterior cleaning regime on all lines,by that I mean a proper exterior clean by people in the cleaning shed.Think it was every 8 weeks.When I was at Hainault we did 3 trains a day Monday to Friday.

 

[Mawkie]

Presumably, "Partial Wash" omits the wax & dry program.

4.2 The types of wash displayed on the dot matrix board at either end of the train washing plant:

Wash type Meaning

NO WASH The train washing plant is not in operational mode, and the brushes are in the open position

PARTIAL WASH The train washing plant will wash the sides and roof of the train

FULL WASH The train washing plant will wash the sides, roof, front and rear of the train

There’s supposed to be a exterior cleaning regime on all lines,by that I mean a proper exterior clean by people in the cleaning shed.Think it was every 8 weeks.When I was at Hainault we did 3 trains a day Monday to Friday.

Do you mean the "deep cleans"? On the Pic these are done at Northfields depot and include interior (and presumably exterior, although I have zero knowledge of this process).

Incidentally, there is a safety aspect to the cleaning routines as well as an aesthetic purpose. This picture from the Northern line highlights the dangers of dirty windscreens and low sun. It makes it difficult to see track workers, signals and departure mirrors (if your line has them), and track obstructions.(I know the Picadilly stock does not have an on-board wash/wipe facility, just wipers.. I think I've seen the S-Stocks wash/wiping. I don't know about the other stocks.)

 

[Snow1964]

I have no special knowledge, but from reading this I imagine that money is not being saved by refusing to wash trains (because such a saving would presumably be applied across all lines), but by refusing to repair the Northern and Piccadilly washes, and the other lines will presumably become dirty as soon as their washes break.

And presumably if freezing weather causes washes to be skipped, becomes harder to clean them next time, potentially then have to do multiple runs through a wash to fully clean off caked on grime

 

[PeterY]

Presumably, "Partial Wash" omits the wax & dry program.

How are the Waterloo and City line trains cleaned? Is there a washer at Waterloo depot?

 

[Mikey C]

4.2 The types of wash displayed on the dot matrix board at either end of the train washing plant:

Wash type Meaning

NO WASH The train washing plant is not in operational mode, and the brushes are in the open position

PARTIAL WASH The train washing plant will wash the sides and roof of the train

FULL WASH The train washing plant will wash the sides, roof, front and rear of the train


Do you mean the "deep cleans"? On the Pic these are done at Northfields depot and include interior (and presumably exterior, although I have zero knowledge of this process).

Incidentally, there is a safety aspect to the cleaning routines as well as an aesthetic purpose. This picture from the Northern line highlights the dangers of dirty windscreens and low sun. It makes it difficult to see track workers, signals and departure mirrors (if your line has them), and track obstructions.(I know the Picadilly stock does not have an on-board wash/wipe facility, just wipers.. I think I've seen the S-Stocks wash/wiping. I don't know about the other stocks.)
View attachment 128192

That's awful. Surely at a minimum, the driver's windscreen has to be kept clean, even if it has to be done manually. After all it doesn't matter if the roof and bodywork of my car is dirty as long as the glass is clean.

 

[Lewlew]

That's awful. Surely at a minimum, the driver's windscreen has to be kept clean, even if it has to be done manually. After all it doesn't matter if the roof and bodywork of my car is dirty as long as the glass is clean.

They should be clean and if that was my train then it would be out of service to the depot!

During Covid, we were running a special service on the Bakerloo with trains doing Elephant - Queens Park along with Queens Park to Harrow shuttles so the trains in the tunnel section weren’t going to Stonebridge depot to be cleaned. I had to request a couple changeovers because the trains and windscreens had got so filthy.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How are the Waterloo and City line trains cleaned? Is there a washer at Waterloo depot?

Yes

 

[STINT47]

Having made multiple journey earlier this week the worst tube stock for external cleaning are the 1973 and 1995 stock.

With work taking place on the Piccadilly line to prepare for the new stock perhaps this is impacting on the frequency of train washing? Not sure why the Northern lune has gone downhill though?

On the SSL tge S7 trains are clean but the S8 are poor in comparison. I've often wondered why the Metropolitan line turns out such dirty trains, the A stock always seemed to be kept much cleaner.

On a more general level I would say that standards on the Underground have gone downhill. Trains are dirtier externally and inside, stations are increasingly looking tired and need some TLC and the whole network is starting to have an uncared for feel to it. I really hope we don't go back to the Underground seen in Heart of the Angel.

 

[Thirteen]

On a more general level I would say that standards on the Underground have gone downhill. Trains are dirtier externally and inside, stations are increasingly looking tired and need some TLC and the whole network is starting to have an uncared for feel to it. I really hope we don't go back to the Underground seen in Heart of the Angel.

I doubt we'll see the Tube looking like the 80s and 90s.

 

[Goldfish62]

On Tuesday I travelled on a Northern line train. Absolutely filthy outside as usual, but spotless inside. They all used to be like that. I assume it had just had a deep clean.

 

[Craig1122]

Several lines suffering a shortage of trains at the moment so that may impact the cleaning schedule. Does a unit go back to depot for cleaning even if it means a cancellation? Opinions will vary on the correct answer.

 

[Goldfish62]

Several lines suffering a shortage of trains at the moment so that may impact the cleaning schedule. Does a unit go back to depot for cleaning even if it means a cancellation? Opinions will vary on the correct answer.

The cleaning issue has been going on for months though.

 

[Craig1122]

The cleaning issue has been going on for months though.

So has the shortage of working trains!