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Are Network Rail really this poor?

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Falcon1200

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have enough spare staff at key relief points like Preston for an extra crew to be inserted to keep the network running,

That would be wonderful if possible, however very expensive! It would mean having, every day, not one but several spare crews, Driver and Guard, in this case at Preston, with sufficient time in their day to work to Euston, Glasgow Central or Edinburgh, and back; And most days these crews would sit there unused.
 
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AndrewE

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That would be wonderful if possible, however very expensive! It would mean having, every day, not one but several spare crews, Driver and Guard, in this case at Preston, with sufficient time in their day to work to Euston, Glasgow Central or Edinburgh, and back; And most days these crews would sit there unused.
There is a price to be paid if you want reliability. How crummy do you like your public services?

And if we had 1 railway with just 1 "company" working from the Preston depot these spare people would be shared across lots more routes (route and traction knowledge permitting) and there woud be lots more people to juggle/step up until the next "spare" came on duty.
 

GardenRail

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I've been travelling up and down the West Coast Mainline quite a bit recently and at least 50% of my journeys have been significantly impacted by infrastructure issues incl points failures and signal failures. Given the regular maintenance closures, should I surprised at just how poor and unreliable the infrastructure is? Are Network Rail just a little ****e?
I guess this is what happens when a company gets rid of essential staff.
 

68000

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I agree with the original poster - Yesterday was a clusterfk day with many cancelled trains Eus-Bham due to overhead line issues near Coventry, and many delayed trains due to signal issues near Crewe. Both are down to NR ?
It must have been earlier in the day as I got the 18.09 Crewe to Glasgow Central service and it arrived a couple of minutes early into Glasgow
 

Falcon1200

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And if we had 1 railway with just 1 "company" working from the Preston depot these spare people would be shared across lots more routes (route and traction knowledge permitting) and there woud be lots more people to juggle/step up until the next "spare" came on duty.

A fair point, and it would be interesting to know how route and traction knowledge worked at a depot like Preston in BR days. However, for a spare Avanti crew at Preston to provide the maximum benefit, they would need to sign;

Preston to Euston via the Trent Valley
Stafford to Rugby via Birmingham
Diversionary routes around Birmingham, eg via Bescot
Northampton Loop
Preston to Glasgow Central
Diversionary routes in Scotland, eg via Wishaw, Holytown, Bellshill, Hamilton and the Cathcart Circle
Carstairs to Edinburgh

That is a lot of miles! And I'm not sure how much route knowledge Crews can reasonably be expected to retain.
 

The exile

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Landowners and building operators have responsibilities to everyone including trespassers under the health and safety act
Any party that promised to reverse this and place unlimited liability on the trespasser would have my vote at once!
 

The Planner

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A fair point, and it would be interesting to know how route and traction knowledge worked at a depot like Preston in BR days. However, for a spare Avanti crew at Preston to provide the maximum benefit, they would need to sign;

Preston to Euston via the Trent Valley
Stafford to Rugby via Birmingham
Diversionary routes around Birmingham, eg via Bescot
Northampton Loop
Preston to Glasgow Central
Diversionary routes in Scotland, eg via Wishaw, Holytown, Bellshill, Hamilton and the Cathcart Circle
Carstairs to Edinburgh

That is a lot of miles! And I'm not sure how much route knowledge Crews can reasonably be expected to retain.
Who is signing Colwich - Stoke (Alsager Crewe) - Manchester - Chat Moss/Bolton - Preston?
 

AndrewE

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A fair point, and it would be interesting to know how route and traction knowledge worked at a depot like Preston in BR days. However, for a spare Avanti crew at Preston to provide the maximum benefit...
Obviously all links wouldn't sign all routes, the roster clerk's / traincrew supervisor's skill is in looking at who is going to be available in the next few hours and their route and traction knowledge and matching the resources to the needs. (And knowing all the individuals' preferences for staying on /accepting a request to work a different turn.)

That's how it worked in Bath Road when I was there in 1974 or 1975. Obviously there was enough goodwill and trust going around that people weren't working to rule, even though we were in the middle of some industrial unrest, with pay rises delayed in a period of high inflation, even extra days' leave - eventually - given in lieu of some of our pay rises, we definitely didn't keep up with inflation. There would be a big back-pay (for every railway employee) around Christmas for the spring pay rise for which negotiations had only just been concluded.
 

Some guy

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Who is signing Colwich - Stoke (Alsager Crewe) - Manchester - Chat Moss/Bolton - Preston?
Preston signs the chat moss and also the Bolton line and also Manchester drivers link dependant sign both towards Preston. I’m sure all depots sign Alsager
 

HSTEd

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It's the culmination of trends that have been going on for decades.

Costs have been escalating, the infrastructure gets ever older and more decrepit, the weather is getting more extreme. To top it all the political consensus that guaranteed very large scale public support to the railway has been crumbling.
 

geoffk

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Which happen regardless …

Besides - I know it is legal requirement and quite strange one, to have fencing / physical barier everywhere on the network.
If we compare UK and other countries that are not bothered about trespasses , except high speed lines , perhaps if UK adopted similar approach there would be less delays due to such incidents.
.
I know someone will say “ what if they die or get injured while trespassing?” .

Everybody Knows the railways are dangerous to wonder around , secondly if someone wants to leave this world by being killed by train , they will do it anyway.

.
On my recent Swiss holiday which involved some 35 hours of train travel, I heard a horn sounded only once. We then saw some people trackside, having come out of the lake I think. The driver didn't slow down, let alone stop, so presumably the warning was sufficient to comply with SBB regulations. Britain is an outlier in the way it does things and we don't seem to want to learn from others (which would of course involve changing the law).
 

Krokodil

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which perfectly illustrates why the "lean and mean" railway is not fit for purpose. Integrated railways understand this and have enough spare staff at key relief points like Preston for an extra crew to be inserted to keep the network running, not cancelling trains just because "the crew haven't arrived off their inward working."
Avanti can't even resource the advertised service, let alone spare cover.

Not necessarily anything to do with NR, but if you want a reliable railway you have to fund the infrastructure and make sure tha the operation is robust.
Unfortunately there is no financial incentive for TOCs to mitigate disruption. When there is disruption, NR pays them. Never mind that they could have mitigated by having more spare cover or by maintaining diversionary route knowledge, Network Rail still coughs up in full.

A fair point, and it would be interesting to know how route and traction knowledge worked at a depot like Preston in BR days. However, for a spare Avanti crew at Preston to provide the maximum benefit, they would need to sign;

Preston to Euston via the Trent Valley
Stafford to Rugby via Birmingham
Diversionary routes around Birmingham, eg via Bescot
Northampton Loop
Preston to Glasgow Central
Diversionary routes in Scotland, eg via Wishaw, Holytown, Bellshill, Hamilton and the Cathcart Circle
Carstairs to Edinburgh

That is a lot of miles! And I'm not sure how much route knowledge Crews can reasonably be expected to retain.
You should see how extensive the route cards were when they had VXC work at Preston too.

It would help if the other WCML intercity operation (TPE Manchester Airport to Scotland) were integrated with Avanti. Easier to retain route knowledge via Bolton or St Helens that way.
 

ulysses_k

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Which happen regardless …

Besides - I know it is legal requirement and quite strange one, to have fencing / physical barier everywhere on the network.
If we compare UK and other countries that are not bothered about trespasses , except high speed lines , perhaps if UK adopted similar approach there would be less delays due to such incidents.
.
I know someone will say “ what if they die or get injured while tress passing?” .

Everybody Knows the railways are dangerous to wonder around , secondly if someone wants to leave this world by being killed by train , they will do it anyway.

.
It’s not just about safety, it’s about protecting equipment from theft also.
 

Carlisle

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You should see how extensive the route cards were when they had VXC work at Preston too.
True, but unless your going a long way back into BR times VXC had entirely separate crews from VWC so it wasn’t necessary to sign both TOCs routes
 

Krokodil

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True, but unless your going a long way back into BR times VXC had entirely separate crews from VWC so it wasn’t necessary to sign both TOCs routes
Even counting VXC alone, the route cards at Preston were vast. Probably not as vast as Saltley though
 

Class 170101

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Not sure that Preston is the best place to have a spare. Sure, they sign the whole of the West Coast Main Line but they won't be getting you home on the last train of the day from Preston to London or Birmingham nor to Glasgow or Edinburgh.
 
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Why not? It's not unheard of to have night crews from one depot provide the last down and the first up.
 

swaldman

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There's a theme visible across all public services (which the railway arguably is) that "efficiency" means removing any slack, and thus removing resilience.

The most obvious example is the lack of surge capacity in hospitals that we observed in 2020.

That would be a problem for the railways even without fragmentation. But as somebody said above, why would a TOC pay for spare crews for resilience, if the costs of not having them will be paid by NR...
 

Krokodil

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Not sure that Preston is the best place to have a spare. Sure, they sign the whole of the West Coast Main Line but they won't be getting you home on the last train of the day from Preston to London or Birmingham nor to Glasgow or Edinburgh.
I'm pretty sure that spare cover is a thing at all Avanti depots. The issue is just that they don't have enough staff so all spares have been marked to turns.
 

AndrewE

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I'm pretty sure that spare cover is a thing at all Avanti depots. The issue is just that they don't have enough staff so all spares have been marked to turns.
but it would be more effective ("efficient") if that spare cover wasn't just for Avanti trains - and if Avanti could borrow traincrew from local services. Balkanisation has a cost, and joint (one-railway) depots eveywhere give you lots more flexibility. It worked before sectorisation.
 

Krokodil

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but it would be more effective ("efficient") if that spare cover wasn't just for Avanti trains - and if Avanti could borrow traincrew from local services. Balkanisation has a cost, and joint (one-railway) depots eveywhere give you lots more flexibility. It worked before sectorisation.
Well yes. At larger depots (such as Manchester Piccadilly) cross-cover between intercity routes, and cross-cover between regional routes. At smaller locations (such as Holyhead) cross-cover between both.
 

Meerkat

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Any comparison of spare cover with BR days should really also provide a comparison of wage costs.
im guessing a train crew is now a significantly more expensive thing to have sitting around doing nothing.
 

AndrewE

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Any comparison of spare cover with BR days should really also provide a comparison of wage costs. I'm guessing a train crew is now a significantly more expensive thing to have sitting around doing nothing.
True, but it is what it is.
As I asked above, how crummy do you like your public services to be? I would rather that they were reliable.
 
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Any comparison of spare cover with BR days should really also provide a comparison of wage costs.
im guessing a train crew is now a significantly more expensive thing to have sitting around doing nothing.
It costs upwards of £530 for a return ticket to Manchester from London. I think they can afford to have someone sitting around doing nothing on 40% of days.
 

LowLevel

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It would be nice if they'd sort out the Hope Valley line which has lovely new signalling and is riddled with speed restrictions and knackered track.
 
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