Are mobile ticket sellers just for checking tickets

[pdq]

A bit of an argument between passengers at Batley this morning, involving a woman who had refused to buy a ticket from the mobile guys, who have been there every morning since the summer. She claimed they had no right to sell tickets, just to check them and issue tickets to 'those who need them for expenses.' Another passenger claimed they had sold him an incorrect ticket (Batley to Hebden Bridge, going via Leeds).

Leaving aside the woman's attitude to ticket purchase, this set me thinking: does a passenger have a duty to buy from the mobiles (assuming the desired ticket is available) and does refusing to do so count as 'passing an opportunity to do so' in any prosecution/dispute?

 

[Adam0984]

Nope not with them the woman has it right. They can sell one onto the train if asked but can't make you buy one before. Of they did a barrier getting onto trains then it starts getting messy with the union. And there is only 1 Hebden Bridge to Batley ticket valid direct and via Leeds no additional tickets were created when the direct service was introduced

 

[Swirlz]

As far as I'm concerned, under the railway byelaws, mobile ticket sellers constitute an opportunity to pay before boarding, so tickets must be purchased prior to departure. Failure to do so is a criminal offence.

Even if they couldn't sell the desired ticket, (which is unlikely with an Avantix, save for long period seasons), there is still an obligation to purchase at least the single fare to the first location you can sort the ticket out.

In terms of union agreements/working practices/employment law etc, they have NO bearing on the Byelaws or the NRCoC. So if they asked her to purchase her ticket, and she refused, there is grounds for a Section 5(3a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889 prosecution for INTENTIONALLY avoiding payment of the fare, (as the fare is due then, not later).

 

[Adam0984]

That's where the blurred lines come in. To avoid a straight out dispute with the union they can't MAKE people buy them onto the platform as it encroaches on the role of the guard. I've been told that Northern will only go down the prosecution and failure to purchase if there's a confirmed open ticket office at that location but that's just what I've heard.

 

[Greenback]

A guard can't MAKE someone buy a ticket either, whether it's on a train or a platform. Working practices and union agreements have no effect on the byelaws or the obligation to buy a ticket at the first available opportunity.

Of course it's entirely up to Northern what they do when ticketless travel is detected, provided their actions are also legal.

 

[northwichcat]

With the STM staff contracted by Northern there's some debate whether they are allowed to ask alighting passengers for tickets if they haven't alighted a Northern service. Virgin apparently won't let them do the 'down' platforms at Stockport in the morning or the 'up' platforms at Stockport in the evening or any platform at Piccadilly where one of their services is arriving/departing from.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Of course a mobile ticket seller is an opportunity to buy before boarding, I don't see how anyone can even attempt to try otherwise. The only exception would be if the ticket you want is not available on Avantix and the mobile ticket seller gives you permission to purchase later on in your journey.

Working practices may mean that Northern will take a pragmatic view, presumably to avoid guards getting angsty about losing their commission. But I certainly wouldn't want to be in court trying to argue that an authorised railway employee with a fully functioning ticket machine wasn't an opportunity to pay.

 

[radamfi]

Suppose you go to an unstaffed station, just before the train is due, expecting to buy on the train, but there is a mobile Avantix seller there. I don't think it would be right to expect you to miss your train.

 

[bb21]

Don't leave things till the last minute.

 

[northwichcat]

Suppose you go to an unstaffed station, just before the train is due, expecting to buy on the train, but there is a mobile Avantix seller there. I don't think it would be right to expect you to miss your train.

Sensible option would be for the mobile ticket seller to allow you to board with no ticket but to point out to the conductor who the ticket-less passengers are.

 

[radamfi]

Don't leave things till the last minute.

I'm not going to arrive at an unstaffed station half an hour before the train just in case there is a mobile seller there. If I know the station is staffed and if I don't have a ticket then I will buy a ticket the previous day, just in case there is a long queue on the day. If that's not possible I'll have to make alternative arrangements, for example car, coach, or not travel.

 

[bb21]

Arrive at the station five minutes beforehand is not too much to ask, in which case you would have a much better argument should there be a massive queue.

If you leave things to the last minute (which is what you alluded to in your previous post) then you only have yourself to blame.

 

[radamfi]

Arrive at the station five minutes beforehand is not too much to ask, in which case you would have a much better argument should there be a massive queue.

If you leave things to the last minute (which is what you alluded to in your previous post) then you only have yourself to blame.

The by–laws do not allow any discretion at a staffed station, which is effectively what we are seemingly calling an unstaffed station with a mobile seller. So 5 minutes is nowhere enough time. You have to wait as long as it takes.

So it looks like I have to buy the ticket the day before even when starting from an unstaffed station.

 

[bb21]

The by–laws do not allow any discretion at a staffed station, which is effectively what we are seemingly calling an unstaffed station with a mobile seller. So 5 minutes is nowhere enough time. You have to wait as long as it takes.

So it looks like I have to buy the ticket the day before even when starting from an unstaffed station.

No, the Byelaw does not make that provision, however every case I know where there is excessive queueing and taken up by Passenger Focus has succeeded.

Arrive at the last minute and I don't see how even Passenger Focus can help you. You will not stand a chance.

 

[radamfi]

No, the Byelaw does not make that provision, however every case I know where there is excessive queueing and taken up by Passenger Focus has succeeded.

Arrive at the last minute and I don't see how even Passenger Focus can help you. You will not stand a chance.

I'm not prepared to risk being prosecuted for boarding without a ticket at a staffed ticket, even if Passenger Focus so far have a 100% appeal success rate. The stakes are too high. So unstaffed stations are now off limits as well as staffed stations. I will only travel if I can buy the ticket in advance, or there is a smartcard system like Oyster.

 

[bb21]

I think we are at cross purposes because I think we are talking about two different things.

Whilst I agree that you may be opening yourself up to the possibility of a Byelaws prosecution, my point is that you are not giving yourself any chance by arriving at the last minute.

The chance of a successful appeal is good if you allowed yourself a reasonable amount of time, but I appreciate that it is not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So it looks like I have to buy the ticket the day before even when starting from an unstaffed station.

If you want to rock up at the railway stations thirty seconds before your train pulls in, then yes, buying the day before would be sensible.

But you should be aiming to arrive at a station five to ten minutes before departure if you need to buy a ticket, even if you believe that a station is usually unstaffed. Bear in mind, of course, that a TVM can be considered as an opportunity to pay.

 

[Haywain]

... a woman who had refused to buy a ticket from the mobile guys, who have been there every morning since the summer.

Suppose you go to an unstaffed station, just before the train is due, expecting to buy on the train, but there is a mobile Avantix seller there. I don't think it would be right to expect you to miss your train.

For what period of time does a station need to have staff in attendance in order that it is considered a staffed station? In my view, if there have been staff present regularly for any period of time, it must be considered as staffed. I would go as far as to say that a station is staffed for ticketing purposes whenever there are ticket selling staff in attendance.

 

[oddiesjack]

When I asked the ticket sellers on Piccadilly Station(who sell tickets to arriving Northern passengers) to sell me a single to Chinley last week, they told me they are not allowed to sell tickets from Piccadilly.

 

[radamfi]

But you should be aiming to arrive at a station five to ten minutes before departure if you need to buy a ticket, even if you believe that a station is usually unstaffed. Bear in mind, of course, that a TVM can be considered as an opportunity to pay.

Even 10 minutes is often not enough. So you will sometimes have to choose between missing the train or possible prosecution. So the best option if you haven't bought in advance is just not even to attempt getting the train in the first place, and make alternative arrangements.

By the way, I don't differentiate between TVMs and staffed ticket offices. 10 minute queues are also possible at TVMs. I normally buy online and pick up from the machine when I know I have time to wait.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For the purposes of clarity can I just point out that the Railway Bye-laws do not mention 'staffed' or 'unstaffed' stations.

Condition 18 (that applies in Northern-land) states:

....

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or

(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or

(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket.

....

 

[WelshBluebird]

If you want to rock up at the railway stations thirty seconds before your train pulls in, then yes, buying the day before would be sensible.

But you should be aiming to arrive at a station five to ten minutes before departure if you need to buy a ticket, even if you believe that a station is usually unstaffed. Bear in mind, of course, that a TVM can be considered as an opportunity to pay.

What about stations that are unstaffed, have no ticketing facilities (and haven't in decades) and where the standard thing to do is pay on the train if the guard comes around, or pay at your destination if he doesn't.

If you suggest that people at many stations on the welsh valley lines should turn up ten minutes before their train because of the one in a million chance of staff being at the station, then I would say that is lunacy

 

[radamfi]

If you have to arrive at the station 10 minutes before the train, then you are effectively increasing the journey time by 10 minutes. In that respect, stations without a ticket office or machines are more attractive.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who uses the train less than they would do because of the prosecution risk. I would be prepared to chance a 5 minute queue if, say, you just paid more on the train. Prosecution is ridiculously harsh. If I could print out a ticket like in Belgium, use a smartcard like in the Netherlands, or use an app like in Switzerland, it would no longer be an issue.