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Are HSTs considered 'unsafe'?

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WestAnglian

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Considering they have been safely in use for the last 50 years it would appear to be a case they may lose if the courts have to decide.
The authors of the Stonehaven accident report may disagree with you.
 
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yorkie

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The authors of the Stonehaven accident report may disagree with you.
Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?

Also, how do you define "safe"? By your definition, surely all forms of transport are inherently unsafe?
 

The exile

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Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?

Also, how do you define "safe"? By your definition, surely all forms of transport are inherently unsafe?
And if people cannot board trains because 50-odd carriages have been taken out of service and switch to roads where the accident rate is higher (the A9 is hardly renowned for its safety)…. The railway safety compliance people can say “not our problem” but it is the problem for the travelling public.
 

mpthomson

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The authors of the Stonehaven accident report may disagree with you.
It's arguable that any class of currently available train would have provided any better protection for the unfortunate driver in that particular incident.
 

Bob Price

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Look up Gareth Dennis on the subject. The nose of the HST has no resistance to accidents. The drivers are sitting ducks. Great to ride on, but need a time out now.
 

Davester50

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And if people cannot board trains because 50-odd carriages have been taken out of service and switch to roads where the accident rate is higher (the A9 is hardly renowned for its safety)…. The railway safety compliance people can say “not our problem” but it is the problem for the travelling public.
Where it came off is paralleled by the A90, not the A9.
It's still got problems, but the Average Speed Cameras, fitted on the A90 and A9 have reduced the more serious incidents.
The reduced speed at Laurencekirk has helped with that particular junction.

Can't think of too many incidents on those roads with Inter-City Coach operators, so modal switch seems a distraction.
 

43096

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Look up Gareth Dennis on the subject. The nose of the HST has no resistance to accidents. The drivers are sitting ducks. Great to ride on, but need a time out now.
That’s Gareth Dennis, the one with a civil engineering background, not rolling stock. You might ask why a civil engineer is shouting his gob off about the train until you realise it was civil engineering failings that were the root cause at Carmont. Classic deflection technique.
 

bramling

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Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?

Also, how do you define "safe"? By your definition, surely all forms of transport are inherently unsafe?

I wouldn’t say they’re “unsafe” per se. However equally it’s clear they are less safe than more modern trains, and especially in terms of crashworthiness for the driver. On that basis I find ASLEF’s position reasonable, especially given they are now well past their nominal life.

Like many people I will nonetheless be sad to see them go, but it’s clear now is the right time for that. Nothing lasts forever.
 

fgwrich

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Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?

Indeed, I was having a chat with a few ScotRail and XC drivers they other day and came to the same conclusion - also lucky in that had it been pre-Covid times, the outcome could have been worse. They still enjoy driving them though (contrary to forum opinion there are a few drivers that do).

Anyway, I fear this thread will end up going the same way just about every other thread on HSTs will go.
 

matchmaker

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Where it came off is paralleled by the A90, not the A9.
It's still got problems, but the Average Speed Cameras, fitted on the A90 and A9 have reduced the more serious incidents.
The reduced speed at Laurencekirk has helped with that particular junction.

Can't think of too many incidents on those roads with Inter-City Coach operators, so modal switch seems a distraction.
The cameras on the A9 haven't reduced accidents. The death rate on the central section of the road (Perth - Inverness) last year was the highest in 20 years.
 

Davester50

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The cameras on the A9 haven't reduced accidents. The death rate on the central section of the road (Perth - Inverness) last year was the highest in 20 years.
Fair enough. The perception is it's made a difference.
Fatalities and accidents are two separate measures, and also when it's compared with usage.
 

Starmill

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It's not a realistic description to call them unsafe. However it can still be true that trains entering service in 2023 are safer, albeit only marginally.
 

hexagon789

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Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?
S73 in the RAIB report states:

'The impact conditions were significantly beyond those in which even modern cabs are designed to provide protection for occupants.'

(My bolding.)

It does also mention about less robust lifeguards than modern trains. That has been addressed with a new design lifeguard fitted.

It also mentions about lack of bogie retention - not all newer trains have this.

Finally, the alliance couplers shearing or uncoupling; there have been other incidents where fixed bar couplers have bucked, sheared or simply caused vehicles to end up out of alignment (see the LNER Azuma vs HST incident a few years back.)
 

ainsworth74

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Rail travel is inherently extremely safe and the UK has one of the safest railways in the world. There is an ugly issue at the moment with trackside worker fatalities that feels like it isn't getting enough attention but for passengers and train crew the chances of being killed or even seriously injured whilst travelling/operating a train are remote. Thanks to the efforts of many people over many years developing systems of working, technological solutions, and designing equipment that is robust both inside and out the railway is extraordinarily safe. Therefore travelling on an HST for both driver and passenger is extremely safe. I have no doubt that the driver has a higher risk of death or serious injury making their way to or from their signing on point each day whether that be on foot, by cycle, or car than they do whilst they're in the cab.

That being said the HST itself, in the context of the fleet of vehicles in service today, is on the poorer end of crashworthiness. It is probably not the poorest in service but in comparison to stuff which has the advantage of several decades of advancement in design it is poorer. Certainly from the point of view of the driver. One only need to look the metalwork that surrounds a modern cab to see that the safety and survival space of the the driver is now actually a consideration.

Given the severity of the accident at Stonehaven the likelihood is that there isn't a vehicle in service in which the driver would have survived. Whilst something like an LNER Azuma would have probably physically held together rather than disintegrating like the HST cab did the impact forces that the driver would have gone through almost certainly would have been fatal (though I'm not a doctor!). It might have been better for passengers in the consist as a modern vehicle is less likely to have been as crushable as the Mk3s in the formation were but again the likelihood is that even a modern vehicle would have seen passenger fatalities.

HSTs are pushing over 40 years old, they have been worked hard over that time and have given excellent service. In many respects the passenger environment they provide is better than that provided by modern replacements (which is due to the people specifying trains, rather than something that need be inherent to new stock) but they remain increasingly geriatric.

Therefore it is logical that HSTs should be replaced and replaced soon. They are old. They are due for replacement. That they are not as safe as other stock on the railway is neither here nor there. It is true that they are not as safe as modern trains, but considering the inherent safety of operation on the railway it is not something that means that they need to be immediately withdrawn.

Making plans to withdraw them from service is logical and wise. The industry as a whole would benefit from some sort of wider rolling stock strategy (that old "single guiding mind" thing again!). But there is no reason to blackball them immediately.

So are HSTs considered unsafe? I wouldn't have said so. They are not as safe as modern rolling stock but thankfully the inherent safety of rail travel means you are already starting from an extremely high level of safety.
 

Justin Smith

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Look up Gareth Dennis on the subject. The nose of the HST has no resistance to accidents. The drivers are sitting ducks. Great to ride on, but need a time out now.
As Yorkie mentioned above the word "safe" is relative.
Compared to driving, and I'll bet almost all train drivers also drive, any train is very safe.
How many drivers have been killed driving an HST in the last 10 years ? And of them how many would defn not have been killed had it been any other train ?
No, this is typical of the modern world's excessively risk averse, and thoroughly inconsistent, attitude to safety.
"We want 100% safety" (especially if someone else is paying for it.......).
 
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Davester50

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Yes, but withdrawing Scotrail's HSTs with no immediate suitable replacement stock available would inevitably affect the Highland Line.
And also the Aberdeen, Dundee to Central Belt line that runs adjacent to the A90 (and A92) a bit of the way :)
 

Railperf

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Can anyone prove beyond reasonable doubt that any other current rolling stock would have preserved the driver, conductor and passenger alive in the exact same circumstances?
 

irish_rail

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Look up Gareth Dennis on the subject. The nose of the HST has no resistance to accidents. The drivers are sitting ducks. Great to ride on, but need a time out now.
Sigh. As a driver, give me a HST in a collision over a class 15x sprinter any day of the week.

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Best thing we've ever had to drive in my time.
Seconded. Vastly superior to drive from a comfort point of view compared with IETs (in my opinion!!)
 

66701GBRF

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Can anyone prove beyond reasonable doubt that any other current rolling stock would have preserved the driver, conductor and passenger alive in the exact same circumstances?
Have you ever heard the phrase "you can't prove a negative"?
 

northernbelle

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Would the outcome have been better with a Class 170?
Nobody, including RAIB, can say for sure.

What the RAIB did say that there were specific aspects of the HST - cab, bogie retention, lifeguards - that, had they been of a different design, might have led to a better outcome.
 

John Bishop

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Sigh. As a driver, give me a HST in a collision over a class 15x sprinter any day of the week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Seconded. Vastly superior to drive from a comfort point of view compared with IETs (in my opinion!!)
Really? You must have some very smooth track down your way, because up here, the ride in them is awful, certainly compared to a 158 or 170 with air suspension. Granted, I don’t sign IETs so can’t make that comparison. A nice roomy cab but that’s as far as it goes IMO.
 

fgwrich

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FYI, 43128 has the new RAIB approved lifeguards. I wonder if that has delayed its protracted return to service.
 

Tetchytyke

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The HST design is almost fifty years old. You’d hope that design had progressed at least a bit in half a century.
 

irish_rail

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Really? You must have some very smooth track down your way, because up here, the ride in them is awful, certainly compared to a 158 or 170 with air suspension. Granted, I don’t sign IETs so can’t make that comparison. A nice roomy cab but that’s as far as it goes IMO.
Its the little things, like not having a daft desk preventing movement of one's legs on the IET that make them worse than a HST (for me anyway). Also annoying things like i prefer the drivers seat on a HST compared with an IET, and as you mention the bright roomy cab and decent view. The view out the front of an IET isn't great, especially due to the high dashboard which prevents a good view of the track ahead. This also gives a false illusion of going far slower than you actually are, which I find annoying when judging station stops. And let's not even mention the new DSD pedal being progressively fitted to IETs.....

Thats not to say IET cab is bad , it isn't , and in some ways it is very good, I just personally prefer HST cab, though there are plenty of GWR drivers (mainly newer ones) who despise the HST and love the IETs.
 

12LDA28C

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Trains don't get designed to withstand the forces exerted on the cab when it plunges down an embankment and that kind of event is so rare, it would be ridiculous to suggest that they should be. Drivers boycotting HSTs because they are 'unsafe' in a once-in-a-generation accident is crazy.
 

Starmill

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Trains don't get designed to withstand the forces exerted on the cab when it plunges down an embankment and that kind of event is so rare, it would be ridiculous to suggest that they should be. Drivers boycotting HSTs because they are 'unsafe' in a once-in-a-generation accident is crazy.
There's not a current "boycott" in place.
 
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