Are Hope Valley semi fast services practical?

[Chester1]

Would it be practical to timetable and operate two semi fast services in the Hope Valley and remove all calls between Sheffield and Stockport from TPE and EMR services?

- 1tph with the stopping pattern of the current diversionary service.
- 1tph of normal stopper service but not calling between Chinley and Dore.

This would be a capacity boost and make Northern services a more viable alternative to TPE and EMR. Chinley and Dore would not need any a express stops if they had a half hourly semi fast service to Manchester and Sheffield.

The diversionary service is timed to match departure and arrival times of the stopper. Could the journey but done faster if timetable was altered?

 

[Killingworth]

Would it be practical to timetable and operate two semi fast services in the Hope Valley and remove all calls between Sheffield and Stockport from TPE and EMR services?

- 1tph with the stopping pattern of the current diversionary service.
- 1tph of normal stopper service but not calling between Chinley and Dore.

This would be a capacity boost and make Northern services a more viable alternative to TPE and EMR. Chinley and Dore would not need any a express stops if they had a half hourly semi fast service to Manchester and Sheffield.

The diversionary service is timed to match departure and arrival times of the stopper. Could the journey but done faster if timetable was altered?

Delicate that.

The current diversion is working reasonably well for those wanting to travel to the Hope valley from Manchester and Sheffield. No extra paths are required into Piccadilly although they are from Hazel Grove to Ardwick.

It's not good for those wanting to reach the Goyt valley from the east or from there to the Hope valley and Sheffield.

The current diversions should be over by September. Timetable changes will happen, possibly in 2025, but many parties and issues are involved. Currently most users are probably a lot more concerned about trains turning up and running to time than a new timetable promising what is too often not delivered.

Capacity has been assumed to mean an extra fast hourly service. That's how the current work has been promoted. But currently in many, if not most, hours there are only 7 fast carriages running between Sheffield and Manchester. Some are very full but not all. First priority adding more carriages to them?

Do we really need an extra fast train and, if so, where should it start and finish? I'd suggest the market has changed and 2 fasts an hour are enough.

The new market seems to favour leisure users who are paying their own fares and quite happy to pay less for a longer journey time. Evidence for that is all the luggage being piled into the Northern trains at Sheffield for the Airport!

So I'd agree two semi fast services running between Manchester and Sheffield make sense.

That brings the difficult part. The current Hope valley stopper is part of a half hourly service from New Mills into Piccadilly. It stops at most stations in the Goyt valley, and skips if late.

The current New Mills stopper could be extended to Sheffield, probably skipping some stations. It could be timed to precede the EMR service into Sheffield and follow it when heading west.

Problems? Platform space in Sheffield. Paths down the Sheaf valley to/from Dore. Leaving Sheffield having to wait for a delayed EMR fast - as happens now with TPE. Lack of rolling stock and crew. Greater subsidy needed. If fast services are to be changed their paths before and after Sheffield and Manchester need to be changed and all they interact with too.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The original proposal implies an interchange role for Chinley, which would also become more of a railhead by virtue of having the widest range of services. However, as an unstaffed station with no level access at all and a tiny oversubscribed car park it is not well suited to the roles without major investment.

 

[td97]

The resignalling at Grindleford has enabled provision for terminating services from Manchester, and using the crossover to head back west.
As capacity at Sheffield is an issue, perhaps the New Mills terminator could be extended calling all/most stops to Grindleford, even if only a summer Saturday trial initially focusing on day trippers and hikers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we really need an extra fast train and, if so, where should it start and finish? I'd suggest the market has changed and 2 fasts an hour are enough.

My inclination is that another fast service *isn't* needed, but both of those that do operate should be 6-car pretty much all day. The Liverpool-Norwich service has been a story of overcrowding pretty much as long as it's existed in that form (I had many an unpleasant journey on the 0749 off Lime St in 1997-1998 - so busy it'd routinely take 10 minutes to tip out at Oxford Road - and the problem existed before that too).

 

[Chester1]

My inclination is that another fast service *isn't* needed, but both of those that do operate should be 6-car pretty much all day. The Liverpool-Norwich service has been a story of overcrowding pretty much as long as it's existed in that form (I had many an unpleasant journey on the 0749 off Lime St in 1997-1998 - so busy it'd routinely take 10 minutes to tip out at Oxford Road - and the problem existed before that too).

I agree that six cars are needed all day. If or when that isn't sufficient two semi fasts and two express is probably better than one stopper and three express.

The original proposal implies an interchange role for Chinley, which would also become more of a railhead by virtue of having the widest range of services. However, as an unstaffed station with no level access at all and a tiny oversubscribed car park it is not well suited to the roles without major investment.

Those problems hadn't occured to me. I have only changed at Chinley once and it looked almost derelict!

 

[Killingworth]

I agree that six cars are needed all day. If or when that isn't sufficient two semi fasts and two express is probably better than one stopper and three express.

Those problems hadn't occured to me. I have only changed at Chinley once and it looked almost derelict!

Trouble with making the TPE and EMR services 6 car all day is the amount of fresh air carried for a lot of the day and for a lot of the route mileage with no easy places to quickly split, join and hold them.

Chinley has quite a large island platform shelter, a rusting footbridge, an inadequate car park and very congested roads all around. The local community group might not agree with 'derelict'- they want lifts to make it more accessible!

 

[Bevan Price]

The resignalling at Grindleford has enabled provision for terminating services from Manchester, and using the crossover to head back west.
As capacity at Sheffield is an issue, perhaps the New Mills terminator could be extended calling all/most stops to Grindleford, even if only a summer Saturday trial initially focusing on day trippers and hikers.

Personally. I would think it would be more useful to extend the New Mills Central terminator to a reopened Chapel en le Frith Central station.

 

[Killingworth]

Personally. I would think it would be more useful to extend the New Mills Central terminator to a reopened Chapel en le Frith Central station.

That would do nothing to reduce pressure on the Sheffield - Manchester stopping route where Northern crush loading is such that all can't board some weekends.

 

[Chester1]

Personally. I would think it would be more useful to extend the New Mills Central terminator to a reopened Chapel en le Frith Central station.

I thought about this since your post. Reopening the old central station for terminating services isn't crazy. It is in a vastly better location than the surviving station. The freight line is two tracks through the station site. The station building and car park appears to be owned by one business. A lift and footbridge would be essential in 2024. It would require a cross over and some signalling changes too. Its a bit controversial to suggest but it would be an opportunity to close the Buxton line station and Dove Holes. Buxton-Piccadilly should be under an hour and running non stop between Buxton and Whaley Bridge would enable it. As post #3 points out, Chinley station would need investment if it went to 2tph.

 

[IanXC]

For me the whole question of what to do about Hope Valley capacity is tied up in a wider recast of semi-fast services through the Sheffield area, I'd propose:

Norwich to Liverpool runs via Dore south curve avoiding Sheffield
Cleethorpes to Liverpool as existing
Leeds to Nottingham via Barnsley as existing
Bradford Interchange to Nottingham via Leeds and Wakefield Westgate
Leeds to Sheffield express via Barnsley (truncated Lincoln service)
Lincoln to Manchester Airport via Sheffield, Philips Park, Manchester Victoria and Ordsall Chord - acting as a semi fast across the Hope Valley, calling Dore and Chinley (plus one or two others?)

That would seem to me to add capacity for new leisure markets, restore connectivity lost and add long required capacity.

 

[LowLevel]

That would do nothing to reduce pressure on the Sheffield - Manchester stopping route where Northern crush loading is such that all can't board some weekends.

Stop selling Sheffield to Manchester cheap advances and messing about with Northern Only tickets (a percentage of whom then just wander on to the EMR/TPE trains and get smacked for another 26 quid anyway) and concentrate on providing the local train to local people, I'd suggest as a first step

 

[Killingworth]

Stop selling Sheffield to Manchester cheap advances and messing about with Northern Only tickets (a percentage of whom then just wander on to the EMR/TPE trains and get smacked for another 26 quid anyway) and concentrate on providing the local train to local people, I'd suggest as a first step

The multiplicity of ticketing options certainly doesn't help. 3 different operators between Sheffield and Manchester any of which can be delayed, cancelled.or overwhelmed due to short forming.

The TOC specific advance tickets issue isn't always against EMR. At this minute a single from Sheffield to Manchester on the EMR app is £26.50 for TPE's 8.08, £12.15 on Northern's 8.15 and £11.30 on EMR's 8.45.

The TPE service should be 6 car from Cleethopes. It's starting short at Sbeffield as 3 car so users being priced away? EMR 8.45 is running as 3 car instead of usual 4. Northern is also 3 car.

So far this year I've twice witnessed users of Northern westbound services being required to leave the train at Dore for not having a valid ticket for that specific train.

Edited. The starting short TPE 8.08 left at 8.13 delaying the Northern 8.15 to 8.18.

 

[Greybeard33]

For me the whole question of what to do about Hope Valley capacity is tied up in a wider recast of semi-fast services through the Sheffield area, I'd propose:

Norwich to Liverpool runs via Dore south curve avoiding Sheffield
Cleethorpes to Liverpool as existing
Leeds to Nottingham via Barnsley as existing
Bradford Interchange to Nottingham via Leeds and Wakefield Westgate
Leeds to Sheffield express via Barnsley (truncated Lincoln service)
Lincoln to Manchester Airport via Sheffield, Philips Park, Manchester Victoria and Ordsall Chord - acting as a semi fast across the Hope Valley, calling Dore and Chinley (plus one or two others?)

That would seem to me to add capacity for new leisure markets, restore connectivity lost and add long required capacity.

I doubt that a path through central Manchester could be found for your proposed Lincoln to Manchester Airport semi fast. A TPE Scarborough service is planned to terminate at Manchester Victoria from December, and I imagine that will have priority to form an additional Ordsall Chord service to the Airport as and when Oxford Road infrastructure enhancements make this feasible.

Without a replacement Sheffield to Manchester service it would not be acceptable for the Norwich to Liverpool to bypass Sheffield.

 

[IanXC]

I doubt that a path through central Manchester could be found for your proposed Lincoln to Manchester Airport semi fast. A TPE Scarborough service is planned to terminate at Manchester Victoria from December, and I imagine that will have priority to form an additional Ordsall Chord service to the Airport as and when Oxford Road infrastructure enhancements make this feasible.

Without a replacement Sheffield to Manchester service it would not be acceptable for the Norwich to Liverpool to bypass Sheffield.

Oh yes of course central Manchester is another can of worms entirely.

I think the Scarborough you're referring to will actually be terminating at Piccadilly, as its the previous Hull - Manchester Piccadilly services swapped?

Oh absolutely, but with a replacement Sheffield to Manchester service it makes a lot of sense to look at speeding up the Norwich to Liverpool by avoiding Sheffield.

 

[Bevan Price]

Oh yes of course central Manchester is another can of worms entirely.

I think the Scarborough you're referring to will actually be terminating at Piccadilly, as its the previous Hull - Manchester Piccadilly services swapped?

Oh absolutely, but with a replacement Sheffield to Manchester service it makes a lot of sense to look at speeding up the Norwich to Liverpool by avoiding Sheffield.

But does it make sense to omit the biggest source of traffic East of the Pennines?

 

[IanXC]

But does it make sense to omit the biggest source of traffic East of the Pennines?

In terms of connectivity the loss is Sheffield to stations beyond Nottingham - there would have been no loss of connectivity if the Liverpool - Norwich was being split at Nottingham of course.