Are guards salaries catching drivers ?

[LCC106]

Not up on my railway abbreviations yet... What's DRI T&C and CRI?

Looks like Driver Restructuring Initiative (and possibly Conductor Restructuring Initiative?) Is this to do with collective bargaining of terms and conditions of employment? Took some bloomin' finding on google to work this one out if correct!

 

[CarterUSM]

lol ive read the rule book for years and am fully ware of what the conductor is expected to do, but its no where near as skilled as it once was, the fact replacement were trained during strike action in 4 days says it all!

The fact people think there salary is justified to be on par with a driver is laughable

Many were nowhere near competent to carry out our duties during that strike, people who had tried and failed the test before and had used their 2 goes were suddenly considered acceptable to "run" the trains, they also carried out no commercial duties and no patrolling of trains. They were "trained" in door operation, emergency protection and a singular route to work for the duration and were paid more than a driver for the shift with dedicated strikebreaking money. Bet their mothers are proud of them. I was a TE myself back in the day too however, and the difference between the 2 grades is minimal workload wise if everything goes to plan. Haven't shunted for years, and I'm rarely lineside nowadays, though the driver gets to just drive when he works with me.

 

[TDK]

Best job is at the back, but the money is at the front.

You are having a Giraffe - the best job is by far in the front, no abuse, no worrying about tickets, your own boss etc. no comparison, oh yeah and sheds loads of money - best job in the world

 

[BestWestern]

No where in the full oganisation of Northern Rail is there a guard employed, they dont employ them, only Conductors so YOU ARE A CONDUCTOR!


Dont work with Conductors now moved from Queen St, work DOO

Probably just as well mate, though I'm sure you were sorely missed by all at your old depot...

Word of advice from a lowly 'CONDUCTOR' - Sometimes even those Drivers who think they are God's gift to the railway can make a mistake. When they do, they tend to fall the hardest cos not only do they struggle to cope with the enormous dent in their ego, but they also face the harsh realisation that a lot of their colleagues - of all grades - don't really care a great deal, unlike when one of their more humble comrades comes a cropper. Nobody likes an arrogant tw*t. Now that you're DOO and might actually have to deal with the public I'd leave the attitude in the cab fella, might save you getting a bloody nose :roll:

Anyway, to refer to the original post, the difference between me and the guy at the front is about £15k when you start with the basic. Our Drivers are on about 41k, Guards about 26k. However, you can manage well clear of 30k with a few sundays and rest days without breaking a sweat. Most Drivers aren't too fussed about overtime at our shack since they're on the dreaded 40% tax on anything extra they make, which rather takes the edge off it.

We'll never catch up, but at the minute I'm happy earning a decent wage for doing a far more relaxed and sociable job. It's only my personal view, but at the moment I don't find the extra 8 or 9 grand from my current wedge to a Driver's basic all that attractive, since I quite like being able to vary my workload, put my feet up when I feel the need and socialise with punters and colleagues. The latest rule at our place now is that even fellow Drivers travelling PASS are banned from riding up front, on top of the obvious no mobiles, MP3 players and so on. Driving is becoming a lonely old job in some quarters, which is a shame when most of ours are pretty sociable fellas

 

[TDK]

Guards - and I call them Guards are an asset to the running of the train - I do both DOO and work with a guard and there is always a slight sigh of relief when the guard gets on - all this rubbish terminology of conductor (from the busses), train manager (invented to hucsh the guards up for loosing responsibility) and now some other railway satff call them glorified twix sellers -however - I would certainly prefer a guard on the train than run DOO. As for the salary - there has always been a rift between the guards and the drivers regarding the gap - there will always be a gap as the training costs are non comparible and it is hard to retain drivers if there are other companies with a higher wage.

 

[martin2345uk]

How many TOCs run DOO trains these days? As a passenger I value the work that guards do, and always feel safer on a train when one is present...

 

[CarterUSM]

Don't hear of many drivers leaving Queen st either, very rare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably just as well mate, though I'm sure you were sorely missed by all at your old depot...

Word of advice from a lowly 'CONDUCTOR' - Sometimes even those Drivers who think they are God's gift to the railway can make a mistake. When they do, they tend to fall the hardest cos not only do they struggle to cope with the enormous dent in their ego, but they also face the harsh realisation that a lot of their colleagues - of all grades - don't really care a great deal, unlike when one of their more humble comrades comes a cropper. Nobody likes an arrogant tw*t. Now that you're DOO and might actually have to deal with the public I'd leave the attitude in the cab fella, might save you getting a bloody nose :roll:

Anyway, to refer to the original post, the difference between me and the guy at the front is about £15k when you start with the basic. Our Drivers are on about 41k, Guards about 26k. However, you can manage well clear of 30k with a few sundays and rest days without breaking a sweat. Most Drivers aren't too fussed about overtime at our shack since they're on the dreaded 40% tax on anything extra they make, which rather takes the edge off it.

We'll never catch up, but at the minute I'm happy earning a decent wage for doing a far more relaxed and sociable job. It's only my personal view, but at the moment I don't find the extra 8 or 9 grand from my current wedge to a Driver's basic all that attractive, since I quite like being able to vary my workload, put my feet up when I feel the need and socialise with punters and colleagues. The latest rule at our place now is that even fellow Drivers travelling PASS are banned from riding up front, on top of the obvious no mobiles, MP3 players and so on. Driving is becoming a lonely old job in some quarters, which is a shame when most of ours are pretty sociable fellas

Well said mate, I didn't really want to rise to the goading myself!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You are having a Giraffe - the best job is by far in the front, no abuse, no worrying about tickets, your own boss etc. no comparison, oh yeah and sheds loads of money - best job in the world

Out of a Job if you f**k up just the once (depends which TOC), Lonely (depends on the type of person you are), Worse Hours than guards, Having to buy the Coffee's, Boring...but the money is very good.

The point is both Job's are really dependent on the type of person you are and what you enjoy, I enjoy the banter with the Passengers and very rarely get trouble (that also depends on the type of person you are) I easily average around 30k which is fine for me and my family, I very rarely come across an arrogant Driver, the ones that are tend to be the ones off the street and they soon learn after arriving in the station late when they have their Train home to catch . The point is that the Majority believe there should be a driver and guard on the train and we look out for one another, sadly in DOO land there seems to be a higher percentage of Drivers who think they are gods gift, when quite frankly, they are not!

 

[Steve1966]

You are having a Giraffe - the best job is by far in the front, no abuse, no worrying about tickets, your own boss etc. no comparison, oh yeah and sheds loads of money - best job in the world

One SPAD and you're out

 

[ralphchadkirk]

One SPAD and you're out

Not necessarily.

 

[Trainbuff]

Not a chance ever!!

A guard is now a non skilled job and although it holds safety critical responsibilities, these are now in this day and age very rarely and in most cases never used

How long is a guards training? 3 weeks? A drivers a year?

i would imagine, especially in scotland that the grade will infact be phased out over time and replaced with there version of train manager or indeed glorified TE

In actual fact my guards training was 10 weeks, then another 6 to learn the routes over which I travel.

I am regularly diagrammed to go outside the train to operate crossing barriers and have been outside of the train several times in addition to this.

I am also, of course, to carry out the role of the driver if injured or 'not available' to use rule book parlance. Protection of the Railway

 

[northwichcat]

It's Guard in the rule book, so I'm a guard

Not a Train Manager like with Virgin or a Senior Conductor (regardless of your experience) like with LM.

 

[CarterUSM]

I wouldn't say the guards job is non-skilled, but certainly no more than semi skilled, and i would say the the driving grade is no more than semi skilled, machine operator at best according to some of my elder driving colleagues ! The railway don't want you to be skilled, they just want you to toe the line and be safe, in that order.

 

[BestWestern]

I wouldn't say the guards job is non-skilled, but certainly no more than semi skilled, and i would say the the driving grade is no more than semi skilled, machine operator at best according to some of my elder driving colleagues ! The railway don't want you to be skilled, they just want you to toe the line and be safe, in that order.

I'd agree with that, both jobs require certain personal attributes rather than 'skills' I would say. To me a 'skilled' job would tend to mean something more along the lines of a trade; builder or plumber etc. Certainly though both railway grades are no walk in the park!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'd agree with that, both jobs require certain personal attributes rather than 'skills' I would say. To me a 'skilled' job would tend to mean something more along the lines of a trade; builder or plumber etc. Certainly though both railway grades are no walk in the park!

Or a heart surgeon (they're basically plumbers!).

 

[CarterUSM]

I'd agree with that, both jobs require certain personal attributes rather than 'skills' I would say. To me a 'skilled' job would tend to mean something more along the lines of a trade; builder or plumber etc. Certainly though both railway grades are no walk in the park!

Yeah, skilled always screams "trade" at me, though back in the steam days i'd have said there was probably more skill involved than nowadays.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or a heart surgeon (they're basically plumbers!).

Or orthopaedic surgeons, (just joiners!)

 

[175001]

Not a Train Manager like with Virgin or a Senior Conductor (regardless of your experience) like with LM.

I work for Northern, so I'm a guard.

I'm very lucky, where the drivers in my depot, are thankful for our presence onboard at times!

 

[Beveridges]

Out of a Job if you f**k up just the once (depends which TOC)

What about that a Guard could be out just for giving the RA signal on a red once?

Having to buy the Coffee's, Boring...but the money is very good

Dont all jobs get boring after a while? I've certainly found that

 

[Minilad]

And here was me thinking a guard and a driver were supposed to work as a team

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What about that a Guard could be out just for giving the RA signal on a red once?

Dont all jobs get boring after a while? I've certainly found that

It would be very rare for a guard to be fired for giving the rts at a red once as it comes round to all of us

It shocks me how many people forget teamwork works best. I must be lucky because at my depot we look out for each other and very rarely does any drivers look down on guards, must be a DOO thing

 

[Pumbaa]

And here was me thinking a guard and a driver were supposed to work as a team

Occasionally it happens...!

I was under the impression the "Senior Conductor" role for at least one TOC was to differentiate when units were coupled in operation. One conductor (in the rear unit) was the Senior Conductor, the other in the front unit was just a Conductor. The senior had the safety critical role and was the overall 'guard' of the train, the other conductor was merely to check tickets.

It's been an eye-opener reading some of these comments, certainly feel I know a few of our members a little better! Before I make the below comments, I'd like to point out I fully support 2 man operation and don't like DOO, I never want to see a race to the bottom.

But both guards and drivers need to realise that the business that they are employed in will change with time, both due to technology and the changing role of the railway. As the railway changes, so will their jobs.

Somebody made the point earlier that guards are now not skilled professionals unlike their driving counterparts. I'd agree. Guards/conductors/TEs/TMs are just a service role that are replaceable and dispensable at relatively low cost and high ease. I daresay the role will be watered down more.

Drivers on the other hand aren't as 'professional' as they were. The role is becoming more dependant on systems and decisions made for them, and I don't doubt that within x years the role too will become a service role rather than a skilled professional role. Many years admittedly, but it will happen.

So good on both grades for fighting to keep what you have, make the most of it. But as long as both grades realise it will happen and one day they will succumb to change, they can save us the regular spouting of "nobody else has a clue how to do our jobs" steam that makes it seem like the railway is in its separate fixed paradigm. It isn't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It shocks me how many people forget teamwork works best. I must be lucky because at my depot we look out for each other and very rarely does any drivers look down on guards, must be a DOO thing

Crewe (LM) is also one of those depots by all accounts. I know a few of both grades there relatively well, they speak very highly of each other. There is an interesting division though between old and new folk; the depot grew massively in 2008 to start the Trent Valley service, new hand conductors tend to be a little more 'brainwashed' with corporate guff still.

 

[driver9000]

And here was me thinking a guard and a driver were supposed to work as a team

As far as I'm concerned we are. I like having a Guard on my trains and at my depot Drivers and Guards get on well together both on the train and in the mess room - socially away from the railway to a certain extent too. Working with Guards from other depots the same friendly team work happens in my experience. If it all goes wrong then we work together to sort it out, even if it is just relaying messages or borrowing the Guards phone to contact control. I wouldn't have it any other way

Are Guards wages going to catch up with Drivers wages? Probably not, but I hope to see Guards on our trains for a long time to come. I wasn't a Guard before becoming a Driver and would certainly never dream of looking down on Guards, I don't think I could keep my patience the way they can at times.

 

[Minilad]

As far as I'm concerned we are. I like having a Guard on my trains and at my depot Drivers and Guards get on well together both on the train and in the mess room - socially away from the railway to a certain extent too. Working with Guards from other depots the same friendly team work happens in my experience. If it all goes wrong then we work together to sort it out, even if it is just relaying messages or borrowing the Guards phone to contact control. I wouldn't have it any other way

Exactly the same at our depot too. I wouldn't dream of belittling the guards role as I was one myself before becoming a driver.
We both do jobs where we rely on each other. And could both need each others help. So lets cut the sniping and backbiting and get on with running a railway

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Occasionally it happens...!

I was under the impression the "Senior Conductor" role for at least one TOC was to differentiate when units were coupled in operation. One conductor (in the rear unit) was the Senior Conductor, the other in the front unit was just a Conductor. The senior had the safety critical role and was the overall 'guard' of the train, the other conductor was merely to check tickets.

It's been an eye-opener reading some of these comments, certainly feel I know a few of our members a little better! Before I make the below comments, I'd like to point out I fully support 2 man operation and don't like DOO, I never want to see a race to the bottom.

But both guards and drivers need to realise that the business that they are employed in will change with time, both due to technology and the changing role of the railway. As the railway changes, so will their jobs.

Somebody made the point earlier that guards are now not skilled professionals unlike their driving counterparts. I'd agree. Guards/conductors/TEs/TMs are just a service role that are replaceable and dispensable at relatively low cost and high ease. I daresay the role will be watered down more.

Drivers on the other hand aren't as 'professional' as they were. The role is becoming more dependant on systems and decisions made for them, and I don't doubt that within x years the role too will become a service role rather than a skilled professional role. Many years admittedly, but it will happen.

So good on both grades for fighting to keep what you have, make the most of it. But as long as both grades realise it will happen and one day they will succumb to change, they can save us the regular spouting of "nobody else has a clue how to do our jobs" steam that makes it seem like the railway is in its separate fixed paradigm. It isn't.

You are so wrong about guards, our first role is safety, then operational duties and then customer centric duties, the passenger sees approx 2 percent of a guards training, tickets are relatively a piece of cake, when we earn are money is when things go wrong and you can't replace that with technology, with a guard and driver on board everything us safer and the passengers prefer it too, it takes 3 months just for rules training then on top of that you have routes which my depot that's around 6 weeks and revenue which is 2 weeks

 

[CarterUSM]

And here was me thinking a guard and a driver were supposed to work as a team

I'm pleased to say that i've nearly always found that to be the case at my depot also, I don't care for the tittle tattle between the grades over salary, training, or who has the hrdest job etc etc. I've rarely met a driver who doesn't like having a guard on board either, though if you're an exclusively DOO driver, then you are not half missing out!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm pleased to say that i've nearly always found that to be the case at my depot also, I don't care for the tittle tattle between the grades over salary, training, or who has the hrdest job etc etc. I've rarely met a driver who doesn't like having a guard on board either, though if you're an exclusively DOO driver, then you are not half missing out!

The amount of times I have been asked to go driving and I say the same everytime. I like my job and I am good at it so why bother, if u r happy in your job the money is not a massive issue, I feel the gap is too wide but that is down to percentage pay deals more than anything else

 

[CarterUSM]

The amount of times I have been asked to go driving and I say the same everytime. I like my job and I am good at it so why bother, if u r happy in your job the money is not a massive issue, I feel the gap is too wide but that is down to percentage pay deals more than anything else

Of course it is, but that's just the way it is I suppose, still pretty well paid and I can't say I feel too hard worked either! TE's sometimes say we do the same job as them but just operate the doors also. To a large extent that is true, but I think we get paid more for what we know and might have to do rather than just what we do. And that's no dig at TE's either, I was one myself and I loved it !

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Of course it is, but that's just the way it is I suppose, still pretty well paid and I can't say I feel too hard worked either! TE's sometimes say we do the same job as them but just operate the doors also. To a large extent that is true, but I think we get paid more for what we know and might have to do rather than just what we do. And that's no dig at TE's either, I was one myself and I loved it !

That's the real issue tho isn,t it? People see such a small part of the guards role they assume that we just do what they see.... If only...

Maybe that's the problem with DOO depots, if a driver has never workked on a regular basis with a guard he or she assumes the same as the passengers

 

[Toots]

It's Guard in the rule book, so I'm a guard

Exactly!...This really annoys me...TOC's suddenly decide to change a job title that isn't in the rule book,yet if SCC protocols are not observed we get hauled over the coals...yet the only 'Conductor' that is mentioned in the rule book is that of 'Conductor Driver',no conection with the above, so there is already a seed of confusion with SCC's (I deal with both over the phone),then you have some companies calling their Guards, 'Train Managers',whilst others call their Drivers 'Train Managers,whilst calling Shunters 'Assistant Train Managers'...as the poster above says,if it says you are Guard in the rule book then you are a Guard!!!.

 

[BestWestern]

And here was me thinking a guard and a driver were supposed to work as a team

Just like to add that my depot is also a very friendly, enjoyable place of work with mutual respect from both grades towards each other.

A valid point was made above that some Drivers are not 'people people' and would struggle to cope with the frontline face to face aspects of the Guard's role, just as some Guards would struggle to drive a train. Carriage after carriage of angry, delayed people looking for somebody to vent their anger towards or a group of p*ssed up idiots looking for a fight are surely just as challenging than much of what one might expect to face on a regular basis whilst driving?

Team work is very definitely what it is all about, and I've yet to meet a DOO-experienced Driver who preferred going it alone to having a Guard on board.