Are DOO trains a good idea?

[Topgun]

IMO DOO trains do not make any sense.
Firstly, TOCs that use them, e.g FCC, must surely lose loads of money through passengers not buying tickets, UNLESS of course there are ticket machines and gateline assistants at every station, which i doubt very much.

Would it not be cheaper to employ guards than having to rely solely on ticket machines and gateline assistants at every station?

Secondly, the driver has enough to do without having to worry about drunk or unruly passengers.

With a guard on board passengers must feel safer and BTP can be called to attend at the next booked station when necessary.

What do drivers of DOO trains think??

 

[Dreadnought]

Would it not be cheaper to employ guards than having to rely solely on ticket machines and gateline assistants at every station?

I would imagine that they estimate the amount of revenue that is not being collected and then compare this to the cost of employing guards to collect this extra revenue. Then presumably which ever option offers the most profit will be seen as the best option.

 

[Mojo]

I disagree that they lose money from it, there are still roaming ticket staff, ticket gates and the like, and such few people don't buy ticket's anyway. As far as most passengers are concerned, some routes only have one member of staff on board anyway because the guard never emerges from the back/middle cab but they have all the disadvantages of a guard operating the doors.

 

[gordonthemoron]

all s-bahn's in germany are DOO and there are no barriers. The incentive to buy a ticket is the penalty of €40 if you get caught. Ticket inspectors are plain clothed and work in 'gangs' so the offender is unlikely to scarper

 

[CarterUSM]

All trains should be double manned, Guard/Driver. Though since that's not going to happen now, a ticket examiner should be provided at the very least. I say that with gritted teeth. it would seem though, that capital connect, and other franchises who run DOO services with the debateable exception of scotrail, do not need the revenue or are collecting the vast majority of it anyway. Is it the case that the majority of stations capital connect run have barriers, manned or unmanned?

 

[O L Leigh]

This has already been debated at great length, specifically in relation to a couple of examples. Might be best to have a quick read of those threads first before re-opening this particular can of worm.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30335
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28569

O L Leigh

 

[Waverley125]

I think barriers can work in the right situations i.e. regular stopping 'metro' services, for instance into Leeds or Manchester. Since most people will be going into the main towns, you only need barriers at a few stations to catch most of the revenue. So on The Hfield line, you'd barrier Leeds, Dewsbury, Batley & Huddersfield and bob's your uncle.

For long distance services I don't like it, and ticket inspectors should be the norm. Obviously, depending on whether barriers are put in at a station that has both urban and long-distance services depends on the nature of that station e.g. York-only stations to Knaresborough where the TTI probably won't have time to do a check, so little point.

 

[Mojo]

This has already been debated at great length, specifically in relation to a couple of examples. Might be best to have a quick read of those threads first before re-opening this particular can of worm.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30335
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28569

I agree, I think this has been debated at length before, and I think we will never come to an agreement on the forum, so it's pointless, but if we can keep this debate as to "how to the TOCs as a business think this is a good method of working?" then this could provide a new angle to the debate, so I'll let it continue.

 

[royaloak]

Barriers only work if the nearest un-barriered station is far enough away, all you have to do is see how many people get off at London Road (no barriers) instead of going into Guildford (barriers)!

 

[HST-DAVE]

I often use the DLR in London and the same is true there. I always buy a ticket, most people do. Saying that I seldom see a guard/conductor and the stations are mostly open access...

The DLR is quite weird and clever, a cross between a train and a fair ground ride

 

[Mojo]

All trains have a Passenger Service Agent (as they were called a few years ago, don't know if still are), but I don't know how they work with regards to checking tickets; sometimes you see them, sometimes you don't.

Woolwich Arsenal has a gateline staffed by DLR staff; don't know if it's the only one or not, but I think that's down to its integration with the NR station, which is also barriered.

 

[CarterUSM]

I do recall when First took over the ScotRail franchise that the majority of Glasgow Central was still open access with the exception of the old platforms 11 -13. When they barriered the whole station at peak times, there was an increase of some 2-3 millions pounds in revenue from the previous year in addition to the on train collection from guards and ticket examiners. This was at the expense of employing around 40-50 part time staff. They were very pleased with themselves at the time and sent all their staff a thank you letter. Also when Queen St and Waverley were gated there was quite an increase in revenue, not sure about the figures but many guards were raking in almost a 1000 pounds a month in commission alone before this. Now they're lucky to scrape a tonne. In any case, i find it incredulous that there isn't at least a ticket examiner on each service on franchises with DOO. I'm sure they have done their sums however and found it perhaps negligible or maybe they are too concerned just trying to run the services in the first place without worrying whether passengers have travel documents or not.

 

[Failed Unit]

In any case, i find it incredulous that there isn't at least a ticket examiner on each service on franchises with DOO. I'm sure they have done their sums however and found it perhaps negligible or maybe they are too concerned just trying to run the services in the first place without worrying whether passengers have travel documents or not.

Back to the days of the notices on WAGN - Thank-you for travelling with WAGN (some ned often penned underneath for free).

Unfortuanately people don't mind not paying rail fares, in the case of Scotland the introduction of the 170's made it very easy. Take Falkirk - Glasgow Queen Street pre barrier. Stand in the middle of platform and see where the gaurd is, get on the other unit. Free ride as the gaurd is stuck in the other unit. People didn't think this was wrong. I even remember once at Edinburgh they did a sting, people claimed that they got on at South Gyle (last unstaffed station before Edinburgh). They had put inspectors at that station that day so a lot of people got done for fare evasion. Some of the people were well paid so could easily afford to pay - they chose not to.

I know the rail industry is bad at ripping off passengers, but unfortunately it works both ways. :cry:

 

[CarterUSM]

Yes, they still carry out these stings fairly regularly, especially around Strathclyde. It's amazing the amount of people who claim to travel from penultimate stations.

 

[turbo mick]

Ive been driving doo services for 15yrs with fgw all the paddington local services 165/166 fleet are doo to oxford, banbury,henley,bourne-end,bedwyn i dont mind being on my own but i do rather have a guard on board for safety.


cheers

mick

 

[Waverley125]

the problem is a lot of smaller stations which don't have the facilities. Realistically places like Horsforth, Normanton, Wakefield Kirkgate, Knottingley, Headingley and Harrogate should be barriered. It's just putting the facilities (i.e. a decent stationbuilding and platform canopies) to do it.

 

[CarterUSM]

Do you know, I had no idea there were any DOO diesels! With the exception of ECS of course. You learn something new every day.

 

[Topgun]

Hi Mick,

Just out of curiosity, how are you made aware of any trouble from passengers or an assault on a passenger for example, and how do you deal with drunk/unruly passengers when you are on your own?

Do you have cctv in the cab, and would you ring ahead to the next station and request that BTP attend?

Cheers
Chris

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

What concerns me most about DOO passenger working is what happens if the driver becomes incapacitated for any reason, be it a brick through the windscreen or collapse at the controls.

What happens then, I don't think we've found out yet what the awful consequences could be! Sorry, but I prefer to have a train with a guard on board, I feel that bit safer.

 

[313103]

Do you know, I had no idea there were any DOO diesels! With the exception of ECS of course. You learn something new every day.

All services on the Chiltern Line run by Chiltern Railways out of Marylebone and all services out of Paddington run by the former Thames Trains were all DOO services using class 165 units. Since their introduction in 1992 they have been supplimented by other diesel units. I am suprised you didnt know that though.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

The FGW service from Reading to Gatwick has a conductor on-board, but I think that's probably the only 165 operated service that does have one.

 

[CarterUSM]

Honestly 313103. I had no idea! I did join the forum to learn though as well as spout my nonsense. Strive for knowledge.

 

[turbo mick]

TheExmoorBeast The FGW service from Reading to Gatwick has a conductor on-board, but I think that's probably the only 165 operated service that does have one.


We have conductors on services to basingstoke and oxford to worcester-hereford and on the maidenhead-marlow branch as well as the whole of the reading-gatwick run

The 165/166 fleet were built for doo operation the driver operates the doors from his cab we have csr radio for direct comunication with the signal boxes

 

[Aictos]

All services on the Chiltern Line run by Chiltern Railways out of Marylebone and all services out of Paddington run by the former Thames Trains were all DOO services using class 165 units. Since their introduction in 1992 they have been supplimented by other diesel units. I am suprised you didnt know that though.

Are you sure? I was always led to belive with regards to the Chilterns that it was DOO from Marylebone to Banbury then a guard from Banbury onwards.
I'm also very sure they do have guards as there were openings last year for guards, thanks to one of the Banbury guards for letting me know,

 

[313103]

Well i was a Guard at Marylebone until 06 January 1993, when DOO fully came in i was made surplus to requirements and moved to where i am now. As for the trains North of Banbury i wouldnt know as i have only used Chiltern once since i left and that was to go to Wembley Stadium last year.

 

[ChrisCooper]

What concerns me most about DOO passenger working is what happens if the driver becomes incapacitated for any reason, be it a brick through the windscreen or collapse at the controls.

What happens then, I don't think we've found out yet what the awful consequences could be! Sorry, but I prefer to have a train with a guard on board, I feel that bit safer.

That is what the Dead Mans handle or Drivers Safety Device and vigliance is for, it will apply the brakes and stop the train if the driver becomes incapacitated for any reason. These have been fitted on passenger trains since single manning started, as the guard isn't actually that much use at the other end of the train, especially when busy checking tickets etc. Traditional Trams, including those up in Blackpool, lack any kind of dead mans handle (I don't think even the Centenaries and Jubilees do), so the conductors must be trained to stop the tram if the driver is incapacitated, but by the time they have realised something is wrong (likely that the tram is going too fast or not stopping) and got to the platform where the emergency brake controls are, in a lot of cases an accident has probably already happened.

It's not like the guard could drive the train, as none are qualified (other than on occasions when TOCs use drivers as guards). LeShuttle and Eurostar Train Managers are qualified to drive the trains, but they are fully qualified drivers and just take turns driving and TMing.

The only real safety issue with guards is that in the event of an accident there is another crew member who might not have been killed or seriously injured, or just trapped, especially if the driver and guard are at opposite ends of the train (it's not safe to say the driver is always likely to come off worse though, in a lot of derailments the guard is more at risk if at the rear of the train, look at Potters Bar and think what chance someone in the rear cab would have had).

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Chris, I know how a train works & the principals of the DSD etc, thank you.

I also find the way you talk about guards as not much use as being quite derogatory towards them & their grade, they're a part of the traincrew grade & whilst some may not be much cop at their job, there are some truly superb guards around & the same can be said for drivers & the driving grade as well.

I just don't like the thought of a DOO train on the mainline, because if there's a incident where the driver becomes incapacitated through either illness, accident or vandalism, whilst I know that the DSD or Vigilance will kick in and stop the train, who's going to take care of the passengers? Or is it a case of they fend & look after themselves?

As far as I'm concerned DOO is a penny pinching way of doing things & as a passenger I don't like it, I prefer a guard on there, so if something does go wrong at least we have a responsible person in charge of things & someone who can go and protect the train.

 

[TsLeng]

It wouldn't be long before somebody (signaller maybe..) to realise that something is wrong with a train stopped dead, blocking up all traffic behind. Call up, no answer.... you get the drift.

I doubt passengers would need to 'fend' for themselves being stuck in a train for a few hours. At most I can see the buffet car being raided hehe.
And if there is a buffet/trolley, the staff manning it can be trained to take care of passengers.

 

[royaloak]

Or due to the lack of announcements the pax decide to detrain and walk down the tracks possibly getting run down!

Believe me the train wouldnt have to be there long for some of them who may have some common sense to keep off the tracks to do it, then all the sheep without the sense will follow.

 

[yorkie]

IMO DOO trains do not make any sense.
Firstly, TOCs that use them, e.g FCC, must surely lose loads of money through passengers not buying tickets, UNLESS of course there are ticket machines and gateline assistants at every station, which i doubt very much.

Would it not be cheaper to employ guards than having to rely solely on ticket machines and gateline assistants at every station?

Secondly, the driver has enough to do without having to worry about drunk or unruly passengers.

With a guard on board passengers must feel safer and BTP can be called to attend at the next booked station when necessary.

What do drivers of DOO trains think??

What's the question?

If you are asking if there should be at least two members of staff on each train, then that question is different to asking if trains should be "DOO" by the official definition which doesn't 'count' a ticket examiner as they do not operate the train.

This subject has been done to death recently. I think that there should be at least 2 members of staff on each train but I am happy for the driver to do the doors and I do not feel there is much benefit at all in having a so-called "guard" who just sits in the cab reading the paper, and opening and closing doors at stations. Yet there are people who are anti-DOO but not for the reasons you state, they would rather have a guard who does nothing most of the time, other than press buttons, than having someone patrol the train. The way you've worded it these people can say they are against DOO but they are, in fact, not at all saying so for any of the reasons you quote.