Are Class 58s Popular?

[Journeyman]

As a kid, I saw a photo of a Class 20 cab (but not the whole loco) so I made a Lego model of that loco with 2 cabs!! That was at least 7 years before 58001 was built.

You're bit of a visionary there!

 

[Helvellyn]

It's a shame that the experimental SEPEX (SEParately EXcited) equipment to control the traction motors wasn't rolled out to the rest of the fleet rather than just 58050. I gather it was used successfully on the Class 60 fleet.

 

[ABB125]

You're bit of a visionary there!

The class 20 must've been running cab first then...

 

[Bevan Price]

Interesting post; thanks! Id guess the main problem for the class 60 is that it arrived on the scene just a little bit too late?

The main "problem" for the 58s and 60s is that EWS ordered 250 Class 66s in anticipation of increasing freight traffic that never fully materialised. As EWS had to pay hire fees for the 66s (whether or not they used them), it was more sensible to use them, rather than use locos that were fully owned (and hence without hire fees). It was only because Class 66s did not perform well on some freight jobs that some 60s had to be retained.

In retrospect, an EWS order for around 100 locos might have been adequate.

 

[WesternLancer]

As a kid, I saw a photo of a Class 20 cab (but not the whole loco) so I made a Lego model of that loco with 2 cabs!! That was at least 7 years before 58001 was built.

 

[Wyrleybart]

There was something about them, though. Not the noisiest locos, but they had a low, bass throb to them that shook the ground you were standing on, which seemed appropriate for something designed for heavy freight haulage.

You are right, and maybe it was the power unit which I think was "only" a V12 compared to the class 56's V16.

 

[malc-c]

I like them. I think they look better than the 70's running today.

Here's some archive footage taken at Welwyn Garden City of 58037 (sadly scrapped in December 2013) marshalling a ballast train whilst we wait for a deltic charter to run through. Looking at the age of my son in the blue and yellow bobble hat, it's probably around 1997 - 98

 

[ac6000cw]

The class 60 was the BR response to the class 69. For dragging heavy (not mega stone trains) they were more or less equal, just the reliability wasn't as good.

At the risk of severe thread drift, what would have happened if Foster Yeoman had purchased GE diesels? Would we have an American powered freight network?

Given that Foster Yeoman had bought an EMD SW1001 switcher in 1980 for shunting at Merehead Quarry and had been impressed with it, I think EMD were always the front-runner for the contract (and were prepared to guarantee 95% availability).

In terms of where most 66s were constructed (London, Ontario), we have a largely Canadian-powered freight network. In terms of where the diesel engines inside them were constructed (La Grange/McCook, Illinois), it's largely an American-powered network. So take your choice - or just say it's a North American powered network .

 

[nlogax]

It's sad that 58s disappeared relatively quickly compared to their EE and Brush stablemates. Really liked the US-style look with what I initially presumed were external walkways, but such a shame their usefulness was short-lived and their reliability was so poor. While on the surface 70s are the 21st century iteration of 50s their cabs look like they've been 'designed' with a few heavy hammers after a night on the sauce.

So take your choice - or just say it's a North American powered network .

Ultimately that's more than fine. Reliability and availability is what counts over pretty much everything else.

 

[WesternLancer]

While on the surface 70s are the 21st century iteration of 50s their cabs look like they've been 'designed' with a few heavy hammers after a night on the sauce.

Best description I have yet read of the 70s 'styling'! Superb.

 

[nlogax]

Best description I have yet read of the 70s 'styling'! Superb.

Glad you liked, it's how I see the 70s..fugly!! I meant 58s not 50s in that statement btw but am sure you knew that already

 

[Ashley Hill]

I always thought that 58s looked very modern and stylish. I like 70s as they have a bark to them but they do remind me of the AC invalid cars!

A

Photo J Harrison

 

[Crewe Exile]

I remember they used to have decent numbers riding behind them on the Nuneaton drags from New Street. Cleared a good few that way. They were one of the first noise restricted designed locos so weren’t exactly spectacular for sound. Didn’t mind them but not a patch on a show put on by a 40 towing an electric and load 12!

 

[Strathclyder]

It's sad that 58s disappeared relatively quickly compared to their EE and Brush stablemates. Really liked the US-style look with what I initially presumed were external walkways, but such a shame their usefulness was short-lived and their reliability was so poor. While on the surface 70s are the 21st century iteration of 50s their cabs look like they've been 'designed' with a few heavy hammers pickaxes after a night on the sauce.

Fixed that for you. Though I am one to talk, considering the loco in my profile pic isn't exactly a aesthetic tour-de-force lol

That said, I do have something of a soft spot for the 70s (on account of their soundtrack), but I overall prefer the 58s (for much the same reason I like the 21s/29s & 22s: I like the unsung members in the BR mainline diesels).

 

[Journeyman]

Fixed that for you. Though I am one to talk, considering the loco in my profile pic isn't exactly a aesthetic tour-de-force lol

Well, true, the NBLs had a good beating with the ugly stick, but despite everything wrong with them, the cab interiors were considered excellent. Apparently they were great from an ergonomic perspective, so looks aren't everything.

 

[ac6000cw]

It's a shame that the experimental SEPEX (SEParately EXcited) equipment to control the traction motors wasn't rolled out to the rest of the fleet rather than just 58050. I gather it was used successfully on the Class 60 fleet.

It was - but by that time SEPEX with DC motors was already about to be overtaken by AC traction drives using simpler, more rugged, induction motors (albeit with a load of complex, high power, electronics to drive them).

I suspect that the cost versus benefit of upgrading any other 58's with SEPEX just wasn't there.

(That said, the heavy-haul performance of the EMD class 59 demonstrates what the combination of a good bogie design and a relatively simple - compared to SEPEX - electronic wheelslip system can achieve. I suspect the class 58 bogie design might have been its real 'Achilles Heel' in terms of wheelslip problems...)

 

[Strathclyder]

Well, true, the NBLs had a good beating with the ugly stick, but despite everything wrong with them, the cab interiors were considered excellent. Apparently they were great from an ergonomic perspective, so looks aren't everything.

Oh of course; keep in mind I did basically say as much in my thread on the NBL Type 2s a few months back. Same applies to the 58s, in spite of all their other problems (image of a in-build 58 cab attached below).

 

[Ash Bridge]

Oh of course; keep in mind I did basically say as much in my thread on the NBL Type 2s a few months back. Same applies to the 58s, in spite of all their other problems (image of a in-build 58 cab attached below).

View attachment 96744

Even the 59 & 66s used the excellent 58 desk layout apart from the typical EMD US (and very un-european) style controller.

 

[ABB125]

Oh of course; keep in mind I did basically say as much in my thread on the NBL Type 2s a few months back. Same applies to the 58s, in spite of all their other problems (image of a in-build 58 cab attached below).

View attachment 96744

I love the telephone where the two windscreen panels meet!

 

[43096]

(That said, the heavy-haul performance of the EMD class 59 demonstrates what the combination of a good bogie design and a relatively simple - compared to SEPEX - electronic wheelslip system can achieve. I suspect the class 58 bogie design might have been its real 'Achilles Heel' in terms of wheelslip problems...)

But ask DB about what they preferred for trains out of Liverpool Bulk Terminal - a Class 59 or a Class 60. The answer is the 60, because the SEPEX system works from 0mph whereas the 59's creep control comes in at 3-4mph (IIRC); the problem for the 59 being getting to that 3mph.

The other advantage the 59s have had is a dedicated depot and maintenance teams. To get a fair comparison, see what would happen if BR traction was similarly looked after.

 

[Lek]

The Hornby model came out in 82 as red stripe 58007 but with no Railfrieght branding which identifies these early models as it soon changed to 58007 or 58001 with branding
In the 82 catalogue it was shown in rail blue !
One reason why they along with a 60 aren't so popular could be the lack of noise. BR's first quiet diesel !
When I first saw the model in a Beatties window I had to have one.

I have that loco too, nice worm driven workhorse. I've been pondering the idea of lightly weathering it.

I really loved the 58s when they were running, I always got a little bit excited when they came through, often mistook a double headed 20 for a 58 when seen from a distance, another loco I used to get quite excited about.

 

[ac6000cw]

But ask DB about what they preferred for trains out of Liverpool Bulk Terminal - a Class 59 or a Class 60. The answer is the 60, because the SEPEX system works from 0mph whereas the 59's creep control comes in at 3-4mph (IIRC); the problem for the 59 being getting to that 3mph.

I wasn't comparing a 59 against a 60 - I'm well aware that the 60 is more capable at very low speeds than the 59 (it would be a bit sad if it wasn't, given the extra electronic complexity). I musing on how good a performance you can get out of a well honed (under thousands of locos) bogie design + wheelslip control system in comparison to an 'average' bogie design (e.g. the cl. 58) plus SEPEX.

The SEPEX trials with 58050 happened around the same time as the 59's were being put into service, but I don't know if the performance of 58050 with SEPEX was ever directly compared to a 59.

The other advantage the 59s have had is a dedicated depot and maintenance teams. To get a fair comparison, see what would happen if BR traction was similarly looked after.

Yes, various people have commented on BR's maintenance issues over the years, and differences between regions and depots in maintenance practices. I do wonder if one reason the 37's have survived so long is because they coped better with BR maintenance practices...