Apt

[Class 92]

Do you think virgin trains will run the APT?

 

[Darandio]

Very romantic appeal, but no.

 

[sprinterguy]

No, not in the slightest.

They funded a repaint for the APT-P in around 2004, and that is the extent of their interest in it.

 

[Class 92]

WCRC could use the one at crewe for rail tours

 

[Darandio]

But has anyone got the spare millions to bring it back. And a few million is exactly what it would take.

As I said, a very romantic idea but not cost effective for anyone.

 

[Class 92]

I wish i was still running

 

[Darandio]

I wish i was still running

Probably not going anywhere soon looking at your username. Are you stored somewhere?

 

[Class 92]

I ment i wish it was still running
do you

 

[cj_1985]

are we forgetting that the APT vehicles that are at crewe only amount to a total of 6 carraiges... only 5 of them able to carry passengers in theory.

the fact that the class 370 has been stored since atleast 1987... thats 23-24 years sat, at no point (as far as im aware) has it been put under OHLE to allow it to take power, or check if its still able to...

there are no drivers that are still trained on the class... i dare say that there are even fewer staff with knowlege of it to properly maintain it, the unit would need probably need extensive work done to get it operational, ensure wheelsets are still fit for use, and thats before you consider TPWS and OTMR fitment that would require a new design.

and if it did ever make it back onto the mainline.. and thats a big damn if... it would be limited to 110mph (if even that) as its tilt systems are most likely not compatible with the modern "safe to tilt" notification system (TASS iirc)


i would however like to see it actually run under its own power... but i doubt thats ever going to happen...
on a related subject.. i would also love to see the APT-E the non electric one thats at shildon running even if only on a preserved line

 

[Lampshade]

There's not enough of it left, 6/14 cars is not an APT in the same way that a single class 43 power car and five coaches is not a HST, it's just an assorted rake.

It might be possible to return it to mainline running but it won't be the 155mph monster that British Rail envisaged

 

[jopsuk]

they ran similar formations in testing- apparently the very first formation to run had the two driving cars, two inner end cars and two power cars

However, the chances of much being in working order (especially the old tilt gear!) are low

 

[Class 92]

They could use it on a sevice from London to Liverpool Lime Street
that would be brill

 

[Pen Mill]

Romantic idea but it would still effectively be an unproven prototype .
The tilting system was erratic leading to coffee being propelled across the gangway into somebody's lap.

 

[jopsuk]

They could use it on a sevice from London to Liverpool Lime Street
that would be brill

No it wouldn't- as said, the tilt system, whilst it did improve from the fateful press run, was never properly sorted (the whole thing was cancelled before it could be) and with only five passenger cars (two Driving Trailer Second (52 seats each), two Trailer Brake First (25) and a APT-P Trailer Restaurant/Buffet Second (28) it would have all of 132 standard class and 50 first class seats.

 

[Yew]

Isnt a Pendolino very closely related to the APT? I thought british rail sold the tilt designs to italy, then the italian company made the Pendo.


Also. If we ever did decide to use the APT, Couldnt its Rake be extended by using Mk4's fitted with tilts?

 

[Masbroughlad]

It won't happen - pity, I agree.

I think if BR had continued with this project (apparently it wouldn't have cost much more to put right - political face saving), our railways would be in a better way than they are now, or at least 20 years more advanced.

 

[jopsuk]

Isnt a Pendolino very closely related to the APT? I thought british rail sold the tilt designs to italy, then the italian company made the Pendo.

The tilt system as used in the UK Pendolino I think owes little to the one in the APT- I'm not sure if the Italians used it for any of the Pendolino classes running there, though they were developing their own technology at the time

Also. If we ever did decide to use the APT, Couldnt its Rake be extended by using Mk4's fitted with tilts?

probably not. Also, why would you? Better off fitting a a complete mrk 4 rake with tilt if you were going down that route.

 

[HugePilchard]

Also. If we ever did decide to use the APT, Couldnt its Rake be extended by using Mk4's fitted with tilts?

Bear in mind that the bogies on the APT were between the end of two vehicles (Eurostar-style), rather than the two-bogies-per-vehicle formation that's in use on Mk4 stock.

 

[Wyvern]

The tilt system as used in the UK Pendolino I think owes little to the one in the APT- I'm not sure if the Italians used it for any of the Pendolino classes running there, though they were developing their own technology at the time

I think much of the original APT tilt research went into the Italian trains. Previous attempts on the continent were with passive so-called pendular tilt. I think I'm right in saying the APT was the first successful attempt at powered tilt.

I believe also the intention was to control it by measuring the g forces where now it is programmed by the track balises. Such radio technology was still in its infancy and the intervening years have seen major improvements in electronic technology generally. In the 1970s the microprocessor chip had barely been invented.

 

[j0hn0]

I thought we sold the designs to Alstom but these were then modified as the APT was too low slung with the articulation apparently. This was then modified to work on normal coaches and changed to make it "less smooth", if thats the right way to say it. APT tilt was too smooth, whereas in the pendo, you can feel the tilt.

Also, the reason why APT failed was NOT solely it's tilt, it was it's state of the art brakes which apparently kept failing.

Still, a train waaaay ahead of it's time, but as with all british engineering, sold off for short term gain

 

[Wyvern]

Also, the reason why APT failed was NOT solely it's tilt, it was it's state of the art brakes which apparently kept failing.

I understood that the problems experienced were with the conventional brakes. However stopping it under all conceivable conditions was a problem, as was signal spacing. As it was with any attempts to make a train that fast. Note they also gave up the idea of running any trains above 125mph on the ordinary national network.

 

[Yew]

Its just a shame, If they made an APT to the original-ish specs today. Using microchips and modern systems. It would be up there with any high speed train in the world.

 

[LE Greys]

Its just a shame, If they made an APT to the original-ish specs today. Using microchips and modern systems. It would be up there with any high speed train in the world.

Perfectly possible, just take a MkIV rake and fit it with tilt. IC225 started out as APT-U, a modified version of APT-S with conventional bogies.

The thing I've often wondered is why they did not put both power cars at the same end of the train.

 

[Wyvern]

The thing I've often wondered is why they did not put both power cars at the same end of the train.

Do you mean the APT? I seem to remember they were nervous at the time about propelling at speed.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Is this an edited version of the "will Virgin bring back Concorde" debate.

Sorry as many before have said there is no chance that the APT will ever return.

 

[LE Greys]

Do you mean the APT? I seem to remember they were nervous at the time about propelling at speed.

Yes, and that is curious, since they ended up propelling half the train at speed all the time anyway. I think the reason they didn't have a power car at either end was because of wire oscillation, thus dewiring the rear pantograph a lot (although they could potentially have run a bus line down the entire train). If there had ever been an APT-2, then I imagine it would have been a genuine EMU with one pantograph, basically a skinny version of the Pendolino.

 

[Hydro]

I believe the power cars in the centre came from avoiding wire oscillations from having the pans so far apart, and at the time I believe you couldn't have 25kV bus lines due to safety concerns; both pans had to be up.

 

[LE Greys]

Looks like the usual problem with an engineering compromise, whatever the solution is, it causes problems somewhere. Probably, the best thing they could have done with APT would be to go a bit slower on the design process (which was slow enough anyway) so that these problems could all be sorted out. They tried too many new ideas at once (let's make a tilting train, give it a revolutionary braking system, articulate it, use aerospace construction methods, etc, etc). Maybe a bit of input from the HST team could have helped, perhaps suggesting conventional brakes, since a system full of water is not a good idea on a cold Scottish morning. (On second thoughts, could they have put glycol in it?) It often seems to happen, a new design overreaches itself, and then does not do well in service.

 

[TomJ93]

The Pendolino's Pans are on opposite ends, or am I missing something?

 

[ainsworth74]

The Pendolino's Pans are on opposite ends, or am I missing something?

It does but a 390 doesn't use both pans at the same time in normal operation as there is a 25kV bus along the roof so power can be transmitted the length of the train without the need for using two pans at the same time.