APT-P intermediate vehicle question.

[Ashley Hill]

I only ever saw an APT-P on the mainline once and that was at Crewe in the mid 80s. I was a bit put out by not being allowed to “cab it”. Anyway, one thing I’ve always wondered was were the passengers able to walk through the intermediate vehicles with the pantographs?
This picture shows the cars concerned.

Photo APT-P.com

 

[Helvellyn]

Simple answer was no, which is why the APT-S (for squadron) was to adopt a power car/driving van trailer set-up to avoid the APT-P problem of effectively double-crewing two half sets.

There was through access but for authorised personnel only.

I think BR would have preferred the driving trailers to be driving motors but if I recall regs at the time would not allow power cables running the full length of the train to link them.

 

[hexagon789]

There's documentation which says that passengers may be escorted through the power cars by a member of staff, but persons with pacemakers should be advised against it due to the strong magnetic fields.

I can't remember exactly which document, but it can definitely be found and read on the excellent ATP-P website site.

I don't think there was expected to be a need in normal service though, as all passenger facilities were duplicated in each halfset.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Thanks for the answers.
Are any of these cars preserved?

 

[AndrewE]

Thanks for the answers.
Are any of these cars preserved?

Yes, most of a train and both power cars are at Crewe [Railway] Heritage Centre.

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the answers.
Are any of these cars preserved?

The power cars?

Crewe Heritage Centre has two.

 

[dgl]

And by not allowing a 25kV bus cable to run the length of the train you had to put the power cars in the centre as both needed power, naturally.
Having a power car at each end and each one having it's own pantograph was ruled out due to standing waves being generating by the leading pantograph at high speed, which affect the wire contact of the rear pantograph.
Other high speed trains like the TGV have a power bus and so can have a power car at each end with only one of them with it's pantograph raised.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The power cars?

Crewe Heritage Centre has two.

I knew a couple of driving trailers and saloons were preserved. Clearly im long over due a visit to Crewe.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is to discuss the APT Intermediate Vehicle.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else then they are welcome to start a new thread elsewhere.

I have split off posts that were discussing leading pan vs rear pan to this thread:

Preference for using the rear pantograph over the leading pantograph

Moderator note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/apt-p-intermediate-vehicle-question.291269/ And by not allowing a 25kV bus cable to run the length of the train you had to put the power cars in the centre as both needed power, naturally. Having a power car at each end and...

www.railforums.co.uk

thanks

 

[AndrewE]

I knew a couple of driving trailers and saloons were preserved. Clearly im long over due a visit to Crewe.

It shows up clearly, parallel to the WCML on https://www.google.com/maps/place/C...try=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgxOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw== and the second power car is near the SE corner of their yard.

 

[Rescars]

I don't think there was expected to be a need in normal service though, as all passenger facilities were duplicated in each halfset.

IIRC, there was much criticism at the time about this from those in the know. Quite apart from the loss of passenger accomodation, the costs of duplicating kitchens etc and then separately crewing each half-set to provide the level of on-board catering service which was normal at the time looked to be prohibitive.

 

[Rob F]

Should have put both power cars at one end and run fully push~pull. One would have needed a cab, of course.

 

[AndrewE]

Should have put both power cars at one end and run fully push~pull. One would have needed a cab, of course.

At the time it was believed that the passage of the train ahead of the power cars would clean the rail to give maximun adhesion... They were concerned that with the power cars at one end it would go slower in that direction!

 

[Helvellyn]

Should have put both power cars at one end and run fully push~pull. One would have needed a cab, of course.

Which is what the APT-S was proposed to be, albeit with one power car.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which is what the APT-S was proposed to be, albeit with one power car.

And, became the IC225.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

IIRC, there was much criticism at the time about this from those in the know. Quite apart from the loss of passenger accomodation, the costs of duplicating kitchens etc and then separately crewing each half-set to provide the level of on-board catering service which was normal at the time looked to be prohibitive.

That is a piece of truth that the DfT of today would do well to relearn!

 

[Taunton]

We seem to have resolved the double catering issue nowadays by commonly not providing it at all.

 

[Rescars]

That is a piece of truth that the DfT of today would do well to relearn!

We seem to have resolved the double catering issue nowadays by commonly not providing it at all.

Yes indeed, to both!

Seeing that some of the first on-board catering took the form of luncheon baskets, we are pretty much back to where we started, except that the basket and crockery have become fully disposable.

 

[Taunton]

Some of the traditional Western region longer dmu runs, such as Cardiff to Birmingham, or Bristol to Weymouth, were provided by 6-car sets, two 3-car units coupled, with a catering trolley, where the steward just transferred from one unit to the other, and back, at the various intermediate stops. If things were selling well, such as on the return from Weymouth on summer evenings, the steward would pass a message of what resupply was needed at say Castle Cary, and Westbury refreshment room would have the supplies out on the platform ready when they rolled in.

Probably regarded as "impossible" nowadays.

 

[Rescars]

Some of the traditional Western region longer dmu runs, such as Cardiff to Birmingham, or Bristol to Weymouth, were provided by 6-car sets, two 3-car units coupled, with a catering trolley, where the steward just transferred from one unit to the other, and back, at the various intermediate stops. If things were selling well, such as on the return from Weymouth on summer evenings, the steward would pass a message of what resupply was needed at say Castle Cary, and Westbury refreshment room would have the supplies out on the platform ready when they rolled in.

Probably regarded as "impossible" nowadays.

Very sensible arrangement, provided the rooms were expecting the call and had sufficient stock. Ad hoc emergency requests from dining cars for additional supplies were not always so cordially received. Oversights could happen, even to the best. I recall a tale, though probably apocryphal, about an occasion when the Royal Train making a teatime departure from Euston had to make a special stop at Watford Junction because the milk had been forgotten!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The problem now would be that the cafe on Westbury P2/3 is a concession run privately so I imagine the only option would be someone from GWR going in and buying up all their stock off the shelf! Which might please the managing company but then means all other GWR pax go without.

Are there many (or any?) examples of the local TOC still managing the refreshment room / cafe on their own managed station? Or is literally everything sold off and franchised these days.

 

[Garmoran]

IIRC, there was much criticism at the time about this from those in the know. Quite apart from the loss of passenger accomodation, the costs of duplicating kitchens etc and then separately crewing each half-set to provide the level of on-board catering service which was normal at the time looked to be prohibitive.

IIRC both the problem of duplication and the wave effect on the power lines were mentioned in a feature on the APT which appeared on “Tomorrow’s World” in the late 1970s, so obviously public knowledge at the time

 

[Strathclyder]

It shows up clearly, parallel to the WCML on https://www.google.com/maps/place/Crewe/@53.0937496,-2.4353465,298m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x487a453052544847:0xf9ed0703788b83a!8m2!3d53.100405!4d-2.4438209!16zL20vMDE3X2Ns?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDgxOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw== and the second power car is near the SE corner of their yard.

The one in the SE corner (49006) was the one formely housed at the Electric Railway Museum at Coventry before it closed in 2017.

I too, am well overdue a visit to Crewe Heritage Centre, @Ashley Hill. It's been on my bucket list for so long now. The APT-P/Class 370 has long been one of my favourite train types (always been drawn to the unusual/unsuccessful types), so I need to make that pilgrimage sooner rather than later lol