Approaching Finsbury Park on the Up...

[Lee_Again]

Most Thameslink services (9***) approaching Finsbury Park in the Up direction typically use the Up Fast until reaching the junction just past signal K392, switching to the Up Slow. My question relates to the approach speed which I think (from a lay person) is far too defensive/restrictive. I understand the concept of approach control and the need to ensure trains slow from 100mph to take the junction safely, but the very restrictive nature of this junction often holds up trains behind.
I'm a regular traveller over this section and it seems that every time I arrive at Finsbury Park (having used this approach) a 'fast' service soon crawls through the fast line platform clearly having been slowed by restrictive signalling likely caused by my train crawling along approaching and crossing the junction.
Are there not other ways to ensure speeds are safely reduced at junctions that do not require seemingly over restrictive practices?
I'm sure this happens at other locations but I'm familiar with this junction. In fact, when switching from the Fast to the Slow at Welham Green (just north of the Welwyn tunnels) approach control is in place (I think by flashing yellows) and the train is held up far less (albeit, [I think!] with a 70mph junction).

 

[plugwash]

The ECML is supposed to be getting resignalled with ETCS which I believe should allow for more flexible control of train speeds.

 

[Railcar]

As a passenger waiting on FPK Platform 2 (as I was yesterday), the Thameslink train approached the platform neither as slow, or as fast, as any other train. Watching the train negotiating the points from Up Fast to Up SLow 1 (Up Slow 2 is for Moorgate trains) my memory says that passengers would have been thrown about if traversing that junction at a higher speed.

 

[Watershed]

Most Thameslink services (9***) approaching Finsbury Park in the Up direction typically use the Up Fast until reaching the junction just past signal K392, switching to the Up Slow. My question relates to the approach speed which I think (from a lay person) is far too defensive/restrictive. I understand the concept of approach control and the need to ensure trains slow from 100mph to take the junction safely, but the very restrictive nature of this junction often holds up trains behind.
I'm a regular traveller over this section and it seems that every time I arrive at Finsbury Park (having used this approach) a 'fast' service soon crawls through the fast line platform clearly having been slowed by restrictive signalling likely caused by my train crawling along approaching and crossing the junction.
Are there not other ways to ensure speeds are safely reduced at junctions that do not require seemingly over restrictive practices?
I'm sure this happens at other locations but I'm familiar with this junction. In fact, when switching from the Fast to the Slow at Welham Green (just north of the Welwyn tunnels) approach control is in place (I think by flashing yellows) and the train is held up far less (albeit, [I think!] with a 70mph junction).

The turnout from the Up Fast to the Up Slow 1 (i.e. platform 2 at Finsbury Park) is 30mph, whilst the linespeed on the Up Fast is 90mph for most passenger trains. With a linespeed of 90mph, flashing yellows are only permitted if the turnout is at least 40mph, and therefore it is not permitted to have a flashing yellow sequence here. The linespeed would have to be reduced to 75mph or below for a flashing yellow sequence to permitted.

There are some locations that have derogations from this Railway Group Standard, such as the route from the Down Fast into platform 3 at Stafford, which is quite similar as the linespeed is 85mph EPS and the turnout 25mph. But I don't imagine anything will be changing at Finsbury Park until ETCS is introduced and the lineside signals have been removed.

 

[plugwash]

Afaict once ETCS comes in the problem basically goes away, because ETCS can just give the train a movement authority that is compatible with the route the train will be taking with no need for stuff like approach release.

 

[zwk500]

Afaict once ETCS comes in the problem basically goes away, because ETCS can just give the train a movement authority that is compatible with the route the train will be taking with no need for stuff like approach release.

ETCS fixes the problem of signalling needing to cover the worst case (or near to it) braking curve. It won't do anything about the slow crossing speed though.

 

[plugwash]

My understanding is that approach release means that the signal sits at red until the train is on close approach, then clears. Effectively this means that the train is required to brake based on stopping at the signal, even though they will not actually be stopping at it.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

My understanding is that approach release means that the signal sits at red until the train is on close approach, then clears. Effectively this means that the train is required to brake based on stopping at the signal, even though they will not actually be stopping at it.

Its fair to say that all approach controlled signals are over restrictive given the capabilities of modern train braking systems but of course there are still vehicles on the network that can't match this braking curve so im guessing the timings were established against braking rates of locos with a rake of mk1 stock behind them.