Appealing penalty fare chances

[tuffles]

I've been issued with a penalty fare for failing to show a valid train ticket. It was a short journey so I was issued £20 penalty to pay, which I'm appealing.

There was a queue at the self-service and ticket office. I did queue up to buy a ticket in the ticket office, but after 4 minutes my train arrived so I ran to the train. The ticket gates were open and no guards there to ask for permission. I got in and went straight to the rear of thet rain, knocked on the door, and told the train guard I needed to buy a ticket. He said he didn't have the device to sell me a ticket.

I arrived at my destination and informed the guard by the gate and was issued a penalty fare. I don't think it's fair at all! The train guard never bothered checking for tickets the entire journey. I could have easily gotten off a stop earlier and there's no guards there or ticket gates, and I'd have gotten away with it. I made the effort to buy a ticket by queuing for 4 minutes and immediately finding and asking the train guard to sell me a ticket.

Is there any chance I can appeal on grounds of long queue and I did make an effort to buy the ticket? I don't mind paying the full single fare which is £4.90, or even a full return ticket of £6.90 (I already bought the £4.90 on my way back), but I really don't want to pay £20 penalty fare. -____-

 

[jon0844]

Is this a wind up? You arrived four minutes before your train and thought that sufficient? Just one person ahead of you could take that long, let alone a bigger queue.

Just pay the PF, you got off lightly. And don't go mentioning how you could have just walked out if there was nobody to check tickets at another station, as it might imply you'd have done just that if there was nobody to stop you.

 

[tuffles]

Is this a wind up? You arrived four minutes before your train and thought that sufficient? Just one person ahead of you could take that long, let alone a bigger queue.

Just pay the PF, you got off lightly. And don't go mentioning how you could have just walked out if there was nobody to check tickets at another station, as it might imply you'd have done just that if there was nobody to stop you.

There were several people in front of me in the queue after waiting 4 minutes. I pointed out easily getting away with it to make a point I'm not a fare dodger. I could have done that and nobody would have stopped me. I stupidly went to the train guard on the train, and waited until my final destination and went to the guards there. I feel like I'm being punished for not being a fare dodger.

 

[ian959]

Be glad it is just a penalty fare. Arguably it is not an honest mistake as you deliberately chose not to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. Pay up and move on...

 

[tuffles]

Be glad it is just a penalty fare. Arguably it is not an honest mistake as you deliberately chose not to buy a ticket at the first opportunity. Pay up and move on...

I waited 4 minutes and still had to wait! It's either miss my train or try to buy the ticket on the train. It's not like I sat there doing nothing. I approached the train guard straight away. If I'm a fare dodger I would have gotten off the stop earlier and got away with it! I'm being punished for making the effort to buy the ticket. -_________-

 

[Harpers Tate]

You arrived four minutes before your train and thought that sufficient?...

Just curious. How long in advance do you think IS sufficient?

Is the answer dependent on the frequency of the service?

Is such a period defined anywhere?

 

[jon0844]

I think there are guidelines for TOCs, but it isn't four minutes. And another consideration, if you did have a long wait, would be when the following train was. If it was two hours or something, you might have some justification - although if your trains weren't that frequent, you'd not arrive at the station so late in the first place.

 

[Greenback]

Just curious. How long in advance do you think IS sufficient?

Is the answer dependent on the frequency of the service?

Is such a period defined anywhere?

There is no easy answer. In an ideal world, there would be sufficient TVM's and ticket windows to ensure that everyone could guarantee that they could turn up at the station with just the minimum time to physically complete the transaction.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. In the real world the individual needs to make an informed decision about how early they need to arrive at the station, based on any experiences they have on how busy it will be, how frequent the service is, and how serious would be the consequences of missing their intended train.

For instance, if I am making a long journey to an airport to catch a flight, and missing my train will leave me at risk of missing the plane, I will make sure I arrive at the station a lot earlier than if I were just making a short journey to work, or for a night out. And that's even if I already have a ticket.

As far as the OP is concerned, it is their responsibility to purchase a ticket before boarding the train, or accept the consequences. My personal view is that 4 minutes is insufficient time to allow to buy a ticket, but then they may have been delayed en route to the station. Not that that is an excuse, it's life and things happen.

As the OP mentions it was a short journey, and in an area where there are PF's, I would assume that it is likely that this route has a more frequent service than one or two hourly. It also sounds as if this may be a journey where there are no commercial guards on the trains.

Unfortunately for tuffles, I do not believe there are any grounds at all here for a successful appeal. Sorry, but if you had wanted to pay the normal fare you should have waited for the next train and bought a ticket before travelling.

 

[ian959]

I waited 4 minutes and still had to wait! It's either miss my train or try to buy the ticket on the train. It's not like I sat there doing nothing. I approached the train guard straight away. If I'm a fare dodger I would have gotten off the stop earlier and got away with it! I'm being punished for making the effort to buy the ticket. -_________-

If the trains are so infrequent that you HAD to be on that train, should you not arrive much sooner and allow plenty of time to buy a ticket, rather than just 4 minutes? You waited a whole 4 minutes and decided to ignore your obligation to buy a ticket before boarding and caught your train anyway. In the circumstances you are being treated very fairly getting just a penalty fare - it could have been and may well should be a lot worse.

You are NOT being punished for making the effort to buy the ticket - you are being punished for not actually buying a ticket, as you should have done, before boarding your train. Everything that happened after you left the queue to buy a ticket is irrelevant as far as that is concerned.

You really have no grounds for appealing the penalty fare, simple as that in my view.

 

[Greenback]

If the trains are so infrequent that you HAD to be on that train, should you not arrive much sooner and allow plenty of time to buy a ticket, rather than just 4 minutes? You waited a whole 4 minutes and decided to ignore your obligation to buy a ticket before boarding and caught your train anyway. In the circumstances you are being treated very fairly getting just a penalty fare - it could have been and may well should be a lot worse.

Agreed. Even if the Op had been significantly and genuinely delayed on their way to the station, they then had to make a decision as to whether to wait and buy a ticket, or get the first available train.

The consequences of the decision to catch the train without being in possession of a valid, were to receive a penalty fare. Given this is what happened, then they really have no grounds to either complain about it or to appeal.

We don't know what the consequences might have been of waiting for the next train. It may have been something that tuffles would consider worth the risk of a £20 penalty. However, if that was the case, surely they would just accept matters and not bother to appeal?

It is more likely, I think, that the OP feels genuinely aggrieved, and that, despite the publicity that should be present when PF's are in operation, they did not realise that by just jumping on the train ticketless they were committing an offence that could lead them to being PF'd.

If that is the case here, then tuffles needs to treat this as an unfortunate learning experience, as I don't think that the appeal is ever going to succeed.

 

[34D]

The harsh (but completely correct) replies of the other forum members indicate a broken system. 4 mins seems okay to me.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It is more likely, I think, that the OP feels genuinely aggrieved, and that, despite the publicity that should be present when PF's are in operation, they did not realise that by just jumping on the train ticketless they were committing an offence that could lead them to being PF'd.

If that is the case here, then tuffles needs to treat this as an unfortunate learning experience, as I don't think that the appeal is ever going to succeed.

The other thing that so often gets overlooked too is that issue of a PF is at the discretion of the staff dealing with the matter.

We all know that a Penalty Fare is not a 'magic bullet' and the scenario described could so easily result in a report filed for prosecution of breach of Byelaw

I agree, I cannot see any chance of success with this appeal

 

[Greenback]

The harsh (but completely correct) replies of the other forum members indicate a broken system. 4 mins seems okay to me.

In many instances, it will be more than enough. But, as I said, it is not an ideal world, and there will inevitably be times when such a length of time is not enough.

I can almost always walk into my local ticket office at, say, 1024 and still catch the 1028 service. However, one day, at some point there will be someone in the middle of a long Advance ticket purchase, and, as a result, a queue of five or six attempting to fathom out how to use the TVM!

To guarantee that everyone can ALWAYS be able to buy a ticket in such a short period of time would require such a huge number of staff windows and TVM's as to be completely unjustified commercially.

 

[Yew]

Most TOC passenger charters say you should not have to wait more than 10 minutes. Unfortunately those documents aren't worth the PDF they are written on.

 

[island]

As you chose not to purchase a ticket before joining the train, you committed a criminal offence for which you could have been prosecuted. The train company has taken the lenient step of letting you off with a £20 penalty fare, and I suggest you cough up and avoid putting yourself in the same situation again.

 

[Greenback]

Most TOC passenger charters say you should not have to wait more than 10 minutes. Unfortunately those documents aren't worth the PDF they are written on.

I think that the key word is 'should'. Reasonable people will recognise that there will occasionally be exceptional circumstances at even the quieter stations that may make a 10+ minute wait unavoidable.

Where this occurs routinely, then action of some sort needs to be taken.

Where exceptional conditions do arise, TOC's also need to ensure that staff on trains and at other stations are aware so that allowances can be made.

 

[34D]

I'd be tempted to suggest paying, but then sending a letter to customer services advising that you approached the guard and he couldn't sell you one.

 

[island]

I'd be tempted to suggest paying, but then sending a letter to customer services advising that you approached the guard and he couldn't sell you one.

I wonder if it was SWT on a route with non-commercial guards?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Apologies if I have read this wrong, and please feel free to correct me if so, but is the OP saying that he had ALREADY been waiting four minutes before all these several people in front in the queue?

There were several people in front of me in the queue after waiting 4 minutes.

Going on that basis, he could have been waiting for up to ten, maybe even fifteen minutes.

But then saying that, the OP said this at first:

But after 4 minutes my train arrived so I ran to the train.

These two factors are going to be different. If the former was the case, then this may be slightly more understanding. Say the OP's train left at 0845. He joined the queue in the ticket office at 0830. He'd been queueing for four minutes already, so that'd be 0834. If there were several people in front, and it came close to 0845, then fifteen minutes does seem relatively reasonable.

If, however, he joined the queue at 0841 for example, then I agree with everybody else that he should pay the £20 Penalty Fare before it escalates further.

It would be good if the OP could confirm what time he joined the queue and what time his train left.

Again, apologies if my theory is totally wrong.

 

[SussexMan]

Apologies if I have read this wrong, and please feel free to correct me if so, but is the OP saying that he had ALREADY been waiting four minutes before all these several people in front in the queue?

Only the OP can confirm things but I read it that the OP queued for just 4 minutes

I did queue up to buy a ticket in the ticket office, but after 4 minutes my train arrived so I ran to the train.

I made the effort to buy a ticket by queuing for 4 minutes...

There were several people in front of me in the queue after waiting 4 minutes.

I think there was probably the word "still" missing from the last sentence. "There were still several people in front of me in the queue after waiting 4 minutes". I'm sure if the OP had been there for 10 minutes, or 15 minutes they would have said.

 

[ModernRailways]

My advice would be to pay up then send a letter appealing and on what basis. That way it can't escalate and you may get some travel vouchers.

 

[Flamingo]

My advice would be to pay up then send a letter appealing and on what basis. That way it can't escalate and you may get some travel vouchers.

Which proves all that is wrong with railway Customer Services departments!

 

[LexyBoy]

Unfortunately there is no official guidance as to how long to arrive before your train. From the experiences of a passenger here, we know EMT consider 20 minutes to be insufficient, so lets say 30 minutes. Then you might find that your ticket doesn't work the barriers, so allow another 5 minutes to get the attention of the attendant who's chatting to a colleague/selling tickets/AWOL. Then add the minimum connection time of between 5 and 15 minutes. So you should be sure to arrive at least 40 minutes before your train - though of course this is only advisory and if it takes longer then tough luck.

Tongue recentralised, I would say that I would not rely on being able to buy a ticket in 4 minutes, though I would be cross if I had to queue for more than 10 minutes (based on my experience at Reading, where I generally use the ticket office rather than TVMs). I wouldn't feel justified in complaining in this instance, but you might ask the TOC how long you should allow to buy a ticket, and what to do if you risk missing a train despite allowing this time ("wait for the next train" and "we take a tough stand on fare evasion" are likely to feature in their reply I fear).

What will happen if you board without a ticket will depend where you are - as a rule you're likely to be in trouble with commuter type operators (especially if operating without a guard), whilst in rural areas you're likely to be sold the ticket you want, especially if you get the guard's attention ASAP.

 

[34D]

I wonder if it was SWT on a route with non-commercial guards?

I'm sure you're right, however, our guy did try.

Il defer to others, but on SWT is it pot luck over whether a train has a commercial guard or not? Or is there a pattern?

 

[island]

I'm sure you're right, however, our guy did try.

Il defer to others, but on SWT is it pot luck over whether a train has a commercial guard or not? Or is there a pattern?

I think it varies by route, i.e. for any given train origin and destination, either there will be a commercial guard or there will not.

 

[RPI]

It seems that the op has been issued a PF correctly and I would have issued a PF in these circumstances, however, they have come here for advice on appealing, my advice to anyone who is PF'd is that it's always worth appealing as other than the price of a stamp you have nothing to lose.

 

[island]

It seems that the op has been issued a PF correctly and I would have issued a PF in these circumstances, however, they have come here for advice on appealing, my advice to anyone who is PF'd is that it's always worth appealing as other than the price of a stamp you have nothing to lose.

If you do this, remember that the balance of the PF, if it was not paid in full on issue, is payable within 21 days irrespective of whether you are appealing. It will be refunded if the appeal is upheld, but if it is not, administrative fees may be added.

 

[RPI]

If you do this, remember that the balance of the PF, if it was not paid in full on issue, is payable within 21 days irrespective of whether you are appealing. It will be refunded if the appeal is upheld, but if it is not, administrative fees may be added.

Sorry, I should have made that clear, yes it must be paid regardless within the 21 days

 

[lj9090]

FWIW I've had an appeal granted on these grounds, although I did have 5 minutes not 4. I quoted the penalty fare charter documents which suggested queues shouldn't be longer than 5 minutes during peak times.

Had I known what I do now though, and known the timetable a lot better, I'd have just got the next train which was only about 10 minutes later.

 

[maniacmartin]

I presume you mean the TOC's Passenger Charter. Most of them are worded such that the TOC "should" ensure queues are long, however passengers "must" purchase a ticket. So this argument might not always work, especially if more people start using it.