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I applied to LNER as an apprentice driver in 2024. After passing the tests and interviews up to psychometric stage, I was disappointed to fail the psychometric tests (photo memory test). Unfortunately this was my second attempt as I had taken the teats the previous year and failed on a different aspect. After the tests, I discovered that I had an eyesight issue (easily corrected) and attempted to appeal the failure. It was initially met with rejection but after providing evidence from an Optometrist and supplying additional information, the staff at the Northern Testing Centre agreed that they would allow the appeal, but said it was up to LNER to approve. Disappointingly, LNER Safety and Operations department declined and essentially said rules were rules. I tried to pursue it by raising points around disability discrimination legislation and the likes but they were resolute in their decision. I accepted this (for a while) as I felt I had bo other choice (and probably still don't). I have a good, secure job which is mostly enjoyable but I find it difficult to let this go.
Has anyone had a similar experience or can offer any advice to achieve a successful outcome?
I can’t offer much guidance on it but I do have some questions if you don’t mind?
Firstly what is the eye issue? Having taken the same tests you have I can’t really think of much of the top of my head that would help or give a disadvantage as they flash up so quickly that even though I don’t have an eye issue found that test a real challenge.
Second you say you failed previously on a different test? So one not related to vision?
I’m no doctor and I don’t know the inns and out of disability discrimination but there could be multiple reasons to fail this test and I think almost everyone has a genuine reason to justify sitting them again.
The amount of people that probably don’t get a good night sleep due to worry and then fail because they were exhausted could potentially claim they would pass if they were fully rested.
If it were me I would just take it on the chin that I didn’t pass but maybe that’s me being defeatist and also I’m probably a bit old school and not into this blame and claim culture that we have so much now.
(I’m not suggesting you are doing that btw)
Interesting read, but I can't see how a vision issue that can be corrected would help you with the particular test you failed on?
Plus to add on that you failed previously on a completely different test, could that now also be vision related?
I can't see anyone taking the disability discrimination avenue successfully on vision. At the point of testing you agreed and confirmed you had nothing hindering your performance whether you knew about the vision problem or not at the time.
As AverageJoe said, if they let you retest then it opens the gates to anyone who failed then later on found out; has a whole host of potential issues that could have made them fail.
I can understand the frustration and disappointment to have used both your lives up especially with how long you jump through hoops to be met not meeting the mark and then find out about your vision problem.
But they're right, the rules are set and in my opinion I can't see you being successful in your appeal.
I would say you’re going to have to accept the decision. Going down the discrimination route isn’t going to put you in a good light in the company & only make them think you could be problematic in the future if something doesn’t go your way. On the plus side, I do believe rules have changed, so you now get three attempts at the tests, all be it the final attempt can only be taken 5 years after your second failed attempt, but it is still another life line and plenty of time to practise.
I would say you’re going to have to accept the decision. Going down the discrimination route isn’t going to put you in a good light in the company & only make them think you could be problematic in the future if something doesn’t go your way. On the plus side, I do believe rules have changed, so you now get three attempts at the tests, all be it the final attempt can only be taken 5 years after your second failed attempt, but it is still another life line and plenty of time to practise.
The new 3 lives rule only applies to those have taken any part of the psychometrics after 7 December 24.
The OP clearly started well before that period hence after 2 failed attempts no more attempts will be allowed.
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I applied to LNER as an apprentice driver in 2024. After passing the tests and interviews up to psychometric stage, I was disappointed to fail the psychometric tests (photo memory test). Unfortunately this was my second attempt as I had taken the teats the previous year and failed on a different aspect. After the tests, I discovered that I had an eyesight issue (easily corrected) and attempted to appeal the failure. It was initially met with rejection but after providing evidence from an Optometrist and supplying additional information, the staff at the Northern Testing Centre agreed that they would allow the appeal, but said it was up to LNER to approve. Disappointingly, LNER Safety and Operations department declined and essentially said rules were rules. I tried to pursue it by raising points around disability discrimination legislation and the likes but they were resolute in their decision. I accepted this (for a while) as I felt I had bo other choice (and probably still don't). I have a good, secure job which is mostly enjoyable but I find it difficult to let this go.
Has anyone had a similar experience or can offer any advice to achieve a successful outcome?
The fact that you discover the eye issue "after" taking part the tests it makes a successful appeal improbable.
Like other posters have said, LNER can argue you developed the condition past the time of the assessment and allowing you to retake the tests then can potentially lead for them to have to do so as well to any candidate whom can claim a similar situation like yours
If you knew about your condition "before" taking the tests and disclose it accordingly in advance in that case it could have been a different scenario.
Not knowing exactly what the condition is, how it has been fixed and because is regarding eyesight it is a very delicate matter where RSSB has fixed set standards.
It's not only LNER that would need to get involved but also RSSB as they hold you test's records and they set the rules.
I would say you’re going to have to accept the decision. Going down the discrimination route isn’t going to put you in a good light in the company & only make them think you could be problematic in the future if something doesn’t go your way. On the plus side, I do believe rules have changed, so you now get three attempts at the tests, all be it the final attempt can only be taken 5 years after your second failed attempt, but it is still another life line and plenty of time to practise.
That's only for people who hadn't taken any form of assessment before the 7th of December. If you have taken and failed before that you're still on 2 lives.
The condition is a minor sight defect called Astigmatism and the Optometrist specifically said that I would find it difficult to carry out concentration tasks unaided. Concentration tasks being reading, computer work (the photo memory test is a computer based test) and driving.
I found this out 1 week after failing the test and had I known it at the time, I would have been wearing prescription glasses, which corrects the defect. Also, had I known about it, I couldn't retrospectively claim that I was at a disadvantage for not having the issue corrected because it would have been in my knowledge and I would have to take necessary steps.
The test I failed on when I previously took the tests was the telephone directory search. I failed that because I stupidly didn't fully listen to or digest the instructions and made it a lot more complex than it actually is. I ran out of time and hence failed. This has to be one of the easiest of the tests so it does not bear any correlation to my second test failure.
I am of the same mind as a previous poster in that I have traditional attitudes and don't want to start raising spurious pieces of legislation to get another chance. I am also very determined and find things difficult to let go of, when I really want them. The issue of causing annoyance to the TOC also factored in my considerations however the fact that even the test centre who were initially adamant that I had no case, and later changed their mind due to supporting information I provided, made me feel assured that I was doing the right thing. Does a TOC or any other employer want someone who is not willing to stand up for themselves and persevere in the face of adversity?.…... Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking that they don't.
An initial flurry of faith quickly vanished with regard to the changes to the tests which were recently announced. As others have posted, the changes do not affect previous applicants.
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From a quick read around the subject, a claim for disability discrimination is generally only going to be successful where the employer either knew, or could reasonably have known, about the disability. That’s unlikely to be the case here.
Depending on how far you want to push it you could consider speaking to an employment solicitor. On balance, in my opinion it’s probably one to let go, unfortunately, albeit clearly a frustrating position to be in.
I’m no doctor and I don’t know the inns and out of disability discrimination but there could be multiple reasons to fail this test and I think almost everyone has a genuine reason to justify sitting them again.
The amount of people that probably don’t get a good night sleep due to worry and then fail because they were exhausted could potentially claim they would pass if they were fully rested.
From a quick read around the subject, a claim for disability discrimination is generally only going to be successful where the employer either knew, or could reasonably have known, about the disability. That’s unlikely to be the case here.
Depending on how far you want to push it you could consider speaking to an employment solicitor. On balance, in my opinion it’s probably one to let go, unfortunately, albeit clearly a frustrating position to be in.
As a general point being a bit tired, stressed etc. isn’t going to constitute a disability, unless it’s part of a recognised condition.
I was just saying that there is many reasons why people could feel wronged, or didn’t turn up with their best self on the day.
Mental factors included, stress, and so on.
I was just saying if people want to be awkward many could retrospectively claim they deserve a retest whether or not it is proven to be discrimination or not.
I know I’m not explaining that well but hopefully you get the gist.
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The condition is a minor sight defect called Astigmatism and the Optometrist specifically said that I would find it difficult to carry out concentration tasks unaided. Concentration tasks being reading, computer work (the photo memory test is a computer based test) and driving.
I found this out 1 week after failing the test and had I known it at the time, I would have been wearing prescription glasses, which corrects the defect. Also, had I known about it, I couldn't retrospectively claim that I was at a disadvantage for not having the issue corrected because it would have been in my knowledge and I would have to take necessary steps.
The test I failed on when I previously took the tests was the telephone directory search. I failed that because I stupidly didn't fully listen to or digest the instructions and made it a lot more complex than it actually is. I ran out of time and hence failed. This has to be one of the easiest of the tests so it does not bear any correlation to my second test failure.
I am of the same mind as a previous poster in that I have traditional attitudes and don't want to start raising spurious pieces of legislation to get another chance. I am also very determined and find things difficult to let go of, when I really want them. The issue of causing annoyance to the TOC also factored in my considerations however the fact that even the test centre who were initially adamant that I had no case, and later changed their mind due to supporting information I provided, made me feel assured that I was doing the right thing. Does a TOC or any other employer want someone who is not willing to stand up for themselves and persevere in the face of adversity?.…... Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking that they don't.
An initial flurry of faith quickly vanished with regard to the changes to the tests which were recently announced. As others have posted, the changes do not affect previous applicants.
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I understand you determination and passion to be in the job, and it’s not for me to say you are doing right or wrong but the photo memory test flashes the image up for like a second, to claim you can’t concentrate for that long due to an eye issue seems a little like clutching at straws if you don’t mind me saying.
Also the idea that a toc will respect determination, well unfortunately I don’t think they will care as they have so many applicants.
If a toc were to look deeper in to this determined attitude I think they might even deem it as a negative.
The reason I say that… and I have to be careful about how word this, but there are some drivers and conductors out there who know what long term mental or physical illness to have to get them out of doing everything while on full pay. They may be off constantly or on accommodated links.
However come weekends they miraculously recover. I’ll say no more but some make it very difficult for the genuine ones that need assistance and also a nightmare for driver managers.
So going down the disability discrimination route could be a bit of a red flag to a toc and they might be thinking what other issues will this person use in the future to get what he wants.
*before I get hate from the above comment from some, I do realise there are genuine people out there on accommodated links and such, but I know for certain some aren’t genuine because I have either seen them brag about it or been caught out and shown the door.
I was just saying that there is many reasons why people could feel wronged, or didn’t turn up with their best self on the day.
Mental factors included, stress, and so on.
I was just saying if people want to be awkward many could retrospectively claim they deserve a retest whether or not it is proven to be discrimination or not.
I know I’m not explaining that well but hopefully you get the gist.
Yes mate - there’s a fair bit of luck involved, unfortunately. Unless there’s a genuine actionable reason for a retest it’s hard to see people getting anywhere.
In the OP’s case it he’d known about the disability beforehand and notified them, things might be different.
Yes, I agree that does seem to be the case around the legislation.
I completely agree that tiredness, stress etc. is not going to be relevant but I never suggested it would be as surely these issues are ones people need to deal with occasionally. A diagnosed condition such as mine, is a different matter in my opinion. Regardless of the legislation, I think the TOC could have exercised some discretion here as I was able to provide independent, professional evidence in support of my claim.
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On the subject of the very short exposure to the photograph, I didn't realise how poor my vision was until I had some tests and it (my vision) was corrected using their equipment. Instant clarity!
I agree with previous comments that they have a lot of applicants, so why waste their time on one.
As I have already said, had zi known about the issue, it would have been for me to remedy it prior to taking the test but I genuinely didn't know how poory vision was until it was corrected.
Totally understand how you feel. However, with your eyesight issue you managed to pass the grey square concentration test. I suppose the toc may feel how could you pass one, fail the other and then blame your unknown eye condition?
I appreciate your comments but in my opinion there are significant differences. A blurry square changing colour doesn't require the same level or should I say type of attention to detail as that deciphering whether it was a red traffic light or brake light of a car.
I appreciate your comments but in my opinion there are significant differences. A blurry square changing colour doesn't require the same level or should I say type of attention to detail as that deciphering whether it was a red traffic light or brake light of a car.
I’m either misunderstanding your diagnosis or you are misunderstanding the idea behind the test.
I just had my medical recently and have perfect vision unaided and I can say for certain I did not see everything on the that memory test, if anyone did then they are superhuman. It flashed up for like a second leaving you with a ‘what the hell’ type look on your face.
Astigmatism essentially makes things blurry but the longer you are concentrating on something, the worse it becomes as the eyes fatigue. As you will know, the photo memory test includes objects in the distance as well as those very near to the front of the frame. An example of how this could be affected by the condition is that a brake light in the distance could be mistaken for a red traffic light and the likelihood of this error is greater in someone with the condition versus someone with perfect vision like yourself. I didn't say anything about getting every question correct but without doubt (in a letter written by an eye care professional) the condition affects a person's ability in concentration tasks. The condition can be easily corrected but imagine that this is something which has developed over a persons lifetime and therefore is so subtle, it would not be apparent to the person concerned. When I was shown corrected vision versus what I did have, the clarity was unbelievable.
Astigmatism essentially makes things blurry but the longer you are concentrating on something, the worse it becomes as the eyes fatigue. As you will know, the photo memory test includes objects in the distance as well as those very near to the front of the frame. An example of how this could be affected by the condition is that a brake light in the distance could be mistaken for a red traffic light and the likelihood of this error is greater in someone with the condition versus someone with perfect vision like yourself. I didn't say anything about getting every question correct but without doubt (in a letter written by an eye care professional) the condition affects a person's ability in concentration tasks. The condition can be easily corrected but imagine that this is something which has developed over a persons lifetime and therefore is so subtle, it would not be apparent to the person concerned. When I was shown corrected vision versus what I did have, the clarity was unbelievable.
It’s a great result that northern are giving you an extra shot so i think it’s wise to focus on the positive and pursue that than to challenge LNER any further, but that’s just my thoughts.
In fairness, this appeal happened well over a year ago.....I just find it difficult to let go of something I really want.
I have to admit, I hadn't even considered that Northern might give me another chance. It was the Northern Psychometric test centre who agreed to the appeal but I suspect as LNER would not allow it, I'm still in the same position. It may be with my while enquiring about that direct with them but I think I know the answer.
To put it into context, about 1 in every 3 people have astigmatism as it just means your cornea isn't completely spherical, it's easily fixed by prescription glasses as they compensate for the uneven curvature of your eye.
And I can't see it affecting your concentration with an image that appears and disappears within a couple of seconds.
Now if you needed a quite significant correction to your vision AND astigmatism correction lenses, I could possibly see an argument that your vision was impaired, but again it depends on how high the correction is as the RSSB has limits on that too.
As I said, I get the frustration and you're free to obviously counter their views, I just can not see you getting the outcome you want, so it's how long you're willing to string it out for.
Yes, I agree. It’s only really if the astigmatism is moderate to severe that the image could have been blurry enough to affect performance. Either way, it’s hardly the TOCs fault that a candidate neglected to get their eyes tested every couple of years as the NHS recommends.
I agree with some of the points but not others - that's life.
On the subject of being safe to drive a car - yes I am safe. DVLA standards require a person to be able to read a standard registration plate at a distance of 20 metres in good daylight. There are significant differences between this and staring at a computer screen for hours on end.
A point I would like to make is that there is a lot of opinion on here whereas an expert in eye health, deemed that it did put me at a detriment. In fairness, that person is not an expert in psychometric tests so a balanced interpretation is required but would it have been too much to expect some level of discretion?
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that I neglected to get my eyes tested. I'm early forties and whilst I look after myself, we are all ageing and things start to degrade. I got my eyes tested because I was offered a free eye test whilst passing the opticians and thought why not. To answer an earlier question, this was not a pre planned tactic of mine and I don't recall whether long or short sightedness was an issue.
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My eyes were tested around three years earlier as well and it was not diagnosed then.
I agree with some of the points but not others - that's life.
On the subject of being safe to drive a car - yes I am safe. DVLA standards require a person to be able to read a standard registration plate at a distance of 20 metres in good daylight. There are significant differences between this and staring at a computer screen for hours on end.
A point I would like to make is that there is a lot of opinion on here whereas an expert in eye health, deemed that it did put me at a detriment. In fairness, that person is not an expert in psychometric tests so a balanced interpretation is required but would it have been too much to expect some level of discretion?
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that I neglected to get my eyes tested. I'm early forties and whilst I look after myself, we are all ageing and things start to degrade. I got my eyes tested because I was offered a free eye test whilst passing the opticians and thought why not. To answer an earlier question, this was not a pre planned tactic of mine and I don't recall whether long or short sightedness was an issue.
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My eyes were tested around three years earlier as well and it was not diagnosed then.
I’m not sure what your tests were like but I did mine just over 3 years ago and it consisted of paper tests, followed by computer (screen) tests and then an mmi.
At no point was I staring at a screen for hours on end.
Out of interest with northern did you fail the phone book test? If so they are giving you an extra life out of the goodness of their heart really considering you didn’t fail their test due to an eye condition. Or maybe it was them that you failed the memory test.
Either way knowing the tests as I do and seeing as you are fit to drive a car I think you are rather lucky to be able to resit.
I would imagine there is plenty out there in your same shoes that haven’t been able to resit and also probable a good few with your condition that passed the tests.
*Edit: just to add it’s obvious that you haven’t had the eye test and then the examiner has asked out of the blue whether you recently sat psychometric tests and you have been wrong failed, it’s clear you have brought this up to them, so I’m guessing it’s something on your mind and you were seeking some type of confirmation. It’s my experience with anyone in the medical field they will normally not want to put their name down to rule anything out and they will say something along the lines of “it’s possible that it did effect your ability on the test” which is what you was hoping to hear.
Not saying you are doing anything wrong but I do think you are looking for reasons to justify a resit.
I don't want to come across as rude but as I said, I have done these tests twice and failed twice (in different aspects). How do you get that I'm being treated better than anyone else. I'm out of lives as it stands, just like anyone else would have been.
I failed the phone book test with Northern (1st application). I failed the photo memory test with Northern (2nd application).
I don't want to come across as rude but as I said, I have done these tests twice and failed twice (in different aspects). How do you get that I'm being treated better than anyone else. I'm out of lives as it stands, just like anyone else would have been.
I failed the phone book test with Northern (1st application). I failed the photo memory test with Northern (2nd application).
Northern testing centre conducted both of the testa. The test centre agreed to my appeal (after a lot of fighting for it) but LNER declined to allow it to progress further. Someone on here suggested that Northern were giving me another chance but I don't think that's the case, as the test centre were acting for LNER. I will explore that as an option but as I said, I'm pretty sure they will tell me that I am still out of lives.
Staring at a screen for hours on end was an exaggeration for which I apologise. 45 minutes or so staring at a flashing square followed by the two handed joystick ball around the screen test followed by the photo memory test.
As I have said a few times now, an expert in eye health determined that after starting at a screen for an extended period (with uncorrected vision), my ability would continue to decline whereas someone with normal vision or with my condition which was corrected, would be fine.
Given that the psychometric test centre themselves eventually saw that there was a case (after presenting a lot of evidence), that reassured me that I was acting reasonably.
Again, thanks for the contributions but I don't appear to be any further forward. At the end of the day a human being sits at the other end of the process (the appeal I mean) and they make a decision in their own mind which in my case, didn't work out well for me. As a TOC they have plenty of other people to choose from so whilst I feel aggreived, I also respect them for having the balls to stick to their guns in a world where people often claim to be disadvantaged in one way or another by spurious conditions. Can't blame them really.
So are you saying that a psychometric testing centre will give you another chance but it might depend which TOC request it. So LNER won't put you forward for testing but say Northern rail might or say TPE. And when you say Northern you just mean the test centre is based up north and not Northern railway?.
If you've failed with Northern twice then how does LNER come into it? This is starting to confuse me.
And I think the point everyone is trying to make is that if you've passed all other computer tests that involve concentration, the picture test isn't a depth of field test, it's either you see what's on the picture quick enough or you don't.
It's not an easy test with any eyesight issues, I myself found it hard and I'm at +3.00 prescription on my right eye but nothing on my left and I found it hard, it's just the nature of the assessments.
So did you fail that test because you didn't see what was on the image fast enough or because the picture itself was blurry?.
And I agree with averagejoe, it feels like you pointed the assessments out rather than them asking you, and it's not hard to get health professionals to say "it may contribute" rather than yes or no because most don't confidently know whether it could pose a problem or not because everyone is different.
If you feel you want to appeal their decisions and go try and get the decision you want, then go for it. We're just giving you our opinions on the matter.
Also just to add, someone who has 20/20 vision can have astigmatism. So have you had your eyesight corrected or just lenses to correct astigmatism?
Northern testing centre conducted both of the testa. The test centre agreed to my appeal (after a lot of fighting for it) but LNER declined to allow it to progress further. Someone on here suggested that Northern were giving me another chance but I don't think that's the case, as the test centre were acting for LNER. I will explore that as an option but as I said, I'm pretty sure they will tell me that I am still out of lives.
Staring at a screen for hours on end was an exaggeration for which I apologise. 45 minutes or so staring at a flashing square followed by the two handed joystick ball around the screen test followed by the photo memory test.
As I have said a few times now, an expert in eye health determined that after starting at a screen for an extended period (with uncorrected vision), my ability would continue to decline whereas someone with normal vision or with my condition which was corrected, would be fine.
Given that the psychometric test centre themselves eventually saw that there was a case (after presenting a lot of evidence), that reassured me that I was acting reasonably.
Again, thanks for the contributions but I don't appear to be any further forward. At the end of the day a human being sits at the other end of the process (the appeal I mean) and they make a decision in their own mind which in my case, didn't work out well for me. As a TOC they have plenty of other people to choose from so whilst I feel aggreived, I also respect them for having the balls to stick to their guns in a world where people often claim to be disadvantaged in one way or another by spurious conditions. Can't blame them really.
If I remember correctly, and yours may have been different it was a 30 min concentration test, you then leave the room as they set up for the joystick tests, which lasts around 10 - 15 mins and then you leave the room again before the next test.
So unless I’m remembering that wrong it’s not continuous staring at a screen and eyes have time to relax and adjust.
I’m not a medical professional but I imagine having been pushed for an answer by you they would state it is possible it had an effect on your test score rather than it is absolutely guaranteed it had a negative effect.
Either way myself and others on here aren’t bashing you for this.
Obviously you brought this topic to the forum to be discussed and we are just sharing our opinions.
I applied to Northern in 2022 and was offered a job depending on passing psychometrics/medical. Northern conducted the assessments and I failed.
I applied to LNER in 2025 and again was offered a job depending on passing psychometrics/medical. Northern conduct the psychometric tests on behalf of LNER as they do not have their own psychometric testing people. Again, I failed. The psychometric assessment people agreed that I had a case so with respect to people on here, their assesment of the situation (and they are the people running the show) tended to be in line with mine. I fortunately LNER declined to allow the appeal to continue simply stating that their standard had not been met.
The tests I did were continues (simply moving to a different terminal) with a short explanation of the requirements.
I posted the question to see if anyone had appealed these tests successfully and to offer me advice. I appreciate some will agree with my cause (but it appears most don't). That's fine, I'm an adult and I can accept that I could be wrong in this scenario. It still stands that Northern Psychometric people (who were contracted by LNER) agreed that I had a case.
Thank you again
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Edit to above. I applied to LNER in 2024 (sorry to confuse matters further)
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