Appealing a Penalty Fare

[JM25]

Dear All,

I came across this website on a google search and was hoping, as you seem very knowledgeable, someone might be able to help, please?

My (elderly) mum recently received a penalty fare whilst travelling on her local line, the Abbey Flyer, from How Wood to St Albans.

There is usually a conductor on board and she always purchases her ticket directly from him. There is a ticket machine on the platform (tiny station, unmanned, just the platform and nothing else). However, she doesn't use it after it swallowed her money a few years ago and didn't give her a ticket despite two attempts- she now avoids it. I appreciate that might not be logical, but it is what it is, and I am just trying to help now she is in the situation.

She said she got on the train, and before she had even sat down she was asked for her ticket, she explained that she'd just got on (as they had watched her), and that she was waiting for the conductor, to purchase a ticket from him as usual. There was a bit of back and forth apparently. Anyway, the guy issued the ticket but told her to appeal it.

She did the first two appeals herself, which were rejected. I didn't know about it until she asked me this weekend and she only has a few days until the third appeal time limit is up.

I believe that her previous appeal had focussed on the fact that she normally buys the ticket from the conductor. I believe she was arguing that she was not attempting to cheat, the abbey line community rail website states there is a conductor on every train, and she was pounced on immediately upon boarding the train before the conductor had come.

Her penalty fare notice states that the penalty is £100 plus the fare of £2.30, the reason is stated as 'no ticket'.

I was just wondering if any of you had any experience and knew whether there was anyway around this, please?

Thank you

 

[John R]

If you can post a copy of the Penalty Fare notice then experts here will check whether there is anything technically wrong with the notice.

How old is your mother? There should be some allowance made if she could be described as a vulnerable customer, which might be an angle to use on the final appeal, which is dealt with by a more independent panel.

But ultimately, she had an obligation to buy a ticket before boarding which she did not, so she did commit an offence by doing so.

 

[furlong]

Indeed post a copy of the paperwork (with personal details redacted) for further assistance.

Was she offering to pay by cash? If so, does the ticket machine at the station accept cash?
Does she have a valid railcard?

Does she have evidence of the previous purchases on board? E.g. old tickets? If so, please try to post a picture of (the most recent) one, both front and back, so we can see what it says about Penalty Fares and how it was paid for (and consider whether or not including such images would assist the argument).

 

[WesternLancer]

Her penalty fare notice states that the penalty is £100 plus the fare of £2.30, the reason is stated as 'no ticket'.

Just in case you are not already aware the £100 is reduced to £50 if paid promptly (time during the appeal process stops the clock but the clock restarts at the time each stage of appeal is decided)
If so minded a payment made now (not that I am saying necessarily do that) would be refunded if Appeal upheld.

But do keep a close eye on the time line - I think it's 21 days but check for your own peace of mind

Other advice here will of course help make a 3rd stage appeal as strong as it could be.

 

[pdq]

I feel for you and your mother: there are very mixed messages still going out.
Not in your region, but the train I was on into Leeds at the weekend was quite full. The conductor apologised that he couldn't come through the train to sell tickets, but would stand at the back door at Leeds if needed.
Probably a discussion for another thread - but until onboard sales are 'de-normalised', then people like your mother are going to be caught out on occasions like you describe.

 

[MotCO]

1. How was your mother planning to pay for her ticket - by cash or card? If cash, there are no facilities at the origin station (How Wood), so passengers are entitled to buy a ticket in cash at the first opportunity, namely on board the train. But please, however tempted you may be, don't change the facts to fit the story.

2. Are you sure there is still a ticket machine still at the station? The London North Western website says there is no machine. https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/stations/how-wood-hertfordshire

How Wood (Hertfordshire) Train Station​

How Wood (Hertfordshire) at a glance​

Address:​

How Wood station
Hyde Lane
How Wood
Hertfordshire
AL2 2NG

Ticket office:​

Station information​

Helpline	We want everyone to travel with confidence. That is why, if you are planning on travelling on national rail services, you can request an assistance booking in advance - now up to 2 hours before your journey is due to start, any time of the day. For more information about Passenger Assist and how to request an assistance booking via Passenger Assist, please click here . 0800 0248 997 https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ 24 hours, 7 days a week (except Christmas Day and Boxing Day) Monday to Sunday: 24 hours
Staff help	This station is unstaffed. Your assistance will be provided by our on-train Conductor team.
Induction loop available	Yes
Ticket machine	No
Ramp for train access available	Ramps are kept at this station to provide assistance
Accessible taxis information	Accessible taxis are available
Accessible public phones	Public telephones are not accessible
National Key toilets available	N/A
Step free access	This station has been classified as a step-free access category A station. This means that this station has step-free access to all platforms. More information on the step-free classification system can be found at https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/10955 The assistance meeting point is on the platform that your train is due to depart. When the train has arrived, please attract the attention of a staff member onboard, who will help you to board the train.
Ticket gates	No
Impaired mobility set down available	No
Wheelchairs	Wheelchairs are not available at this station

 

[furlong]

2. Are you sure there is still a ticket machine still at the station? The London North Western website says there is no machine. https://www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk/stations/how-wood-hertfordshire

Well spotted.

So alongside whatever other arguments there may be, you may cite that page as evidence under 6(2)(a) of the PF regulations that the train company concerned states publicly that there are currently no facilities available for the purchase of tickets at that station and consequently erred in imposing the PF. A passenger shouldn't face a penalty for failing to use facilities that the body imposing the penalty states do not exist!

 

[WesternLancer]

Well spotted.

So alongside whatever other arguments there may be, you may cite that page as evidence under 6(2)(a) of the PF regulations that the train company concerned states publicly that there are currently no facilities available for the purchase of tickets at that station and consequently erred in imposing the PF. A passenger shouldn't face a penalty for failing to use facilities that the body imposing the penalty states do not exist!

Which sounds like a bit of a clinching argument.

If you believed there was no such machine even if there was you’d have no reason to even look for one.

 

[AlterEgo]

If there is a machine there and it has been referenced in either of the prior appeals that argument won't stand.

 

[John R]

If there is a machine there and it has been referenced in either of the prior appeals that argument won't stand.

The reference in the OP was that it was there a few years ago and failed to work properly. So it’s not impossible that it has been removed, or that the passenger no longer looked for it given the official notice that there isn’t a machine.

I don’t think the third appeal panel looks at the previous appeals either?

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't think you can really suggest the passenger would have to "look for" the ticket machine - How Wood is a tiny shack, which does appear to have a new style ticket machine which you must pass to get to the only platform:

(the machine has been there for at least eight years according to Google's user submitted pictures)

However I think these ones are card only, and if the OP's mother was paying in cash (was she?) she can legitimately claim no opportunity to pay.

Yes, their website is wrong, but no, it doesn't provide a defence or line of appeal for the Penalty Fare unless it is being made on compelling grounds.

The third appeal panel is independent and will have access to the previous appeals, so consistency is key. It would be helpful if we could see the previous appeals submitted to advise on what to say. (Would be very helpful if the OP's mum stated she wanted to pay cash on board!)

 

[MotCO]

(the machine has been there for at least eight years according to Google's user submitted pictures)

It may have been there 8 years ago, but is it still there now? If it was broken, it could have been removed. I've looked at photos on Google, and the machine was there in 2014 and 2017, but has it now been removed?

 

[AlterEgo]

It may have been there 8 years ago, but is it still there now? If it was broken, it could have been removed. I've looked at photos on Google, and the machine was there in 2014 and 2017, but has it now been removed?

It was there a year ago as per the video and is almost certainly still there now. The OP also says there's a machine there. The website is probably just wrong.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It was there a year ago as per the video and is almost certainly still there now. The OP also says there's a machine there. The website is probably just wrong.

The station page on NRE says there's a TVM there as well, though it hasn't been updated to reflect contactless having been valid there since February this year.

 

[JM25]

Thank you all so much for your replies! It’s very kind of you all to take the time.

Having read through your replies, I now understand that technically you’re not supposed to buy your ticket on board unless there was absolutely no other option (either because machine is broken/not there/etc). But I think the PP who spoke about ‘de-normalising’ buying tickets on the train has hit the nail on the head.

She was in all honesty completely indignant about the situation. They have lived in the area for over 20 years and whilst she’s not a heavy user, she probably uses the service maybe once per month or less on average and has always paid via the conductor (as do a lot of other users, especially older people), and no one has ever said she shouldn’t, or even raised it as an issue. So she had no idea it was something you could get a penalty for, let alone an offence.

I tried explaining this last night, and she was saying well if they’ve changed their policy on this, they should put signs up etc etc to let people know. I believe, having read what you’ve all said that this has technically always been the policy, but I can understand her confusion and her feeling that the rules have changed without warning.

I live about 30 odd mins away but will drive over later to work out exactly what’s what on the ticket machine and signage.

I will also find out if she kept a copy of exactly what she wrote in the previous appeals. Tbh I think she may have barked up the wrong (but completely understandable) tree.

She was focussing, I believe, on the assertion that she was trying to cheat. So she spent time going through the Abby flyer community website and quoting how they say there is always a conductor on board and how they focus on making nervous or vulnerable passengers feel safe or something, and therefore she was, as normal, planning on paying via the conductor (who, according to the website, is always on the train).

In answer to your questions; She is mid 70s. I don’t know if there’s a consensus over vulnerable. She has some mobility problems after a hip op this year, and was recently widowed after 50 years of marriage- not that anyone would see that just looking at her. But I would say she’s not as robust mentally or physically as she was.

I very much doubt she will have any old tickets. Unlike myself who carries random bits of rubbish and old tickets around for months, she’s a tidy soul and will have binned them as soon as she got home!

I believe she usually pays with change but not exclusively, depending on what she has in her purse at the time.

Thank you for your help.

 

[furlong]

So at the station you need to take pictures of any signage related to PFs or buying before boarding. Most notices have wording that doesn't conform to the letter of the regulations which can be used as one ground for appeal.

Assuming there is a machine, you need to check whether it accepts cash or (unlikely) offers Promise to Pay notices.

If the machine doesn't accept cash and she was paying with cash on board, no penalty should have been imposed.

If you can find previous tickets bought on board, the question is whether or not they have text on them saying that Penalty Fares apply which should have been pointed out when they were purchased.

 

[John R]

When you visit the station, look for any signage that says you should buy before you board, otherwise you may be liable for a penalty or prosecution. Look for where it is sited, whether it is obvious to a passenger who walks up the station or on the platform. That could be important in any appeal.

 

[35B]

Others have previously written about appealing on the basis of "compelling reasons". Especially if the signage is not "in your face", I'd suggest that such an appeal be framed include reference to the operator's long term acceptance of payment on train, and that they have therefore by their conduct endorsed your mother's practice.

 

[MotCO]

I'd suggest that such an appeal be framed include reference to the operator's long term acceptance of payment on train, and that they have therefore by their conduct endorsed your mother's practice.

It's possible that your mother always bought on board because she paid by cash and therefore it was perfectly legal to do this, there being no means of buying tickets with cash at the station (if the machine does not accept cash).

When you visit the station, look for any signage that says you should buy before you board

I suggest that you photo/video every notice in the entrance and course your mother used rather than just 'look'. The location, wording and logos on the posters must all be per the regulations, otherwise a Penalty Fare issued could be in contravention of the rules.

 

[furlong]

You could also try to argue that the notice photographed is deficient as "No Ticket" cannot be on its own the reason it was issued (working facilities, offered to pay by card etc.) and the preamble is garbled to the point it loses all meaning ("made a jour").

 

[JM25]

Apologies, I typed a long reply and it’s disappeared!

I’m having some issues with photos being too large so I’ll try again in a moment.

I walked to the station and took some pics. There was I think good and bad news.

You approach the station up a small residential street/drive and the ticket machine is in front of you with two posters next to it.

Good news-

1) the ticket machine does not take cash

2) there is a poster next to the machine and the first point says:

‘Please buy a ticket from the ticket machine, via our website or ticket-buying app or, if none of these options are possible from the conductor on the train as soon as you board.’


Slight confusion is the last sentence:

‘If you travel without a ticket, you may incur a Penalty Fare.’

Bad news:

There is a poster on the wall of the ramp that leads to the platform talking about penalty fares if you don’t buy a ticket before you travel.

I’ll try again to upload the pics in a moment.

But my thoughts are this-

She didn’t mention the cash/card ticket machine issue in previous appeals- only that, like many older people, she doesn’t like dealing with the machine in case it goes wrong and so always uses the conductor. But it seems perfectly reasonable to say in the last appeal that all of this is true, and additionally she could not have bought the ticket at the machine even if she had wished too as it does not take cash.

That I think their signage is unreasonable. In big letters on the info poster as you approach the station it says you can pay via the conductor. I appreciate there are caveats, but it is confusing if you are taking it at face value- which I think is a reasonable stance to take?

Once again thank you in advance

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2025 ==

I’ve taken screen shots of the photos and they’re now small enough to upload. I’m hoping they’ve not gone pixelated etc.

Thanks again

 

[35B]

I would be quite careful to list out the separate grounds of appeal, so that it's clear that there's both a clear argument and that each one on it's own right is a reason why the penalty fare is unreasonable. I would however be careful to ensure that any statement about cash is absolutely correct.

In addition to the defects in the signage (and especially the offer to sell tickets if none of the other options are possible), I would also keep a line in about custom and practice - your mother has had the option of buying on the train for 20 years, so the conduct of the operator has given her reason to believe it's acceptable.

 

[30907]

The PF notice is the standard one with the defective wording often referred to on here.

The "helpful information" sign has very similar wording to that on the Community Rail partnership site and the LNW site itself, and I think you can reasonably argue that, being station-specific, it qualifies the generic PF one.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .The White "Buying A Ticket" Panel on the green "How Wood" Information notice includes the wording "or if none of these options are possible, please buy your ticket from the conductor on board as soon as possible", whereas the yellow background "Penalty Fare Warning Notice" does not include the wording "or if none of these options are possible. . ." – these two notices clearly contradict each other, the green one says you can if you can't use the machine, etc., but the P.F. notice does not! – which one is right?!

. . .These two notices together would be accurate if either the yellow P.F. notice had the words added "you may buy on the train if you are unable to pay by card or the machine is not in working order" or the green and white had the words "or if none of these options are possible. . ." deleted!

. . .I would certainly be including that point in any P.F. appeal if I landed one – I usually use T.O.D. and collect 'em from Walsall Station where I start most of my train journeys!

 

[MotCO]

The PF notice is the standard one with the defective wording often referred to on here.

The "helpful information" sign has very similar wording to that on the Community Rail partnership site and the LNW site itself, and I think you can reasonably argue that, being station-specific, it qualifies the generic PF one.

The Regulations are at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/schedule/1

SCHEDULE 1Notices and Identification
PART 1Notices
Standard notice

1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;

(d)[F1subject to paragraph (da),] the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;

[F2(da)in stations in England, the wording “A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable”;]

(e)wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and

(f)the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

(2) The absence of a logo or name, as required by sub-paragraph (1)(f), on a notice only invalidates the notice in relation to the operator whose logo or name is missing.

I believe it passes the 'logo' tests, and paras 1d, 1e, 1f and 2, but fails para 1c due to the substitution of "may be charged" with "have to pay". If you wish to use this in your appeal, it would probably be helpful to reference the appeal to these regulations and provide a copy.

I think that there are three lines of appeal:
1. The penalty fare is incorrectly completed - "no ticket" (post #20)
2. There were no facilities at the station to purchase a ticket by her desired method (i.e. cash) (* see below)
3. The signage is deficient (this post)

If you care to draft a response and post on here, others will help ensure you have included all the correct information and wording.


* NRCOT Para 6.1 https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was
the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine
is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment
(card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from
that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel
issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for
more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service
by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard
an audible announcement to this effect; or
6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, because
6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or
6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not
accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or
6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the
station you are departing from are not accessible to you.
In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate
Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same
as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

 

[SuspectUsual]

There were no facilities at the station to purchase a ticket by her desired method (i.e. cash) (* see below)

Have we established the OP's mum did want to pay cash?

(Apologies if I've missed it)

 

[35B]

The Regulations are at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/schedule/1


I believe it passes the 'logo' tests, and paras 1d, 1e, 1f and 2, but fails para 1c due to the substitution of "may be charged" with "have to pay". If you wish to use this in your appeal, it would probably be helpful to reference the appeal to these regulations and provide a copy.

I think that there are three lines of appeal:
1. The penalty fare is incorrectly completed - "no ticket" (post #20)
2. There were no facilities at the station to purchase a ticket by her desired method (i.e. cash) (* see below)
3. The signage is deficient (this post)

If you care to draft a response and post on here, others will help ensure you have included all the correct information and wording.


* NRCOT Para 6.1 https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

4 Lines:
4. That custom and practice over 20 years had caused your mother to believe that this was how the operator wished to sell tickets

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure why "no ticket" is being contested as incorrect grounds, it is perfectly acceptable. The passenger didn't have a ticket and it isn't necessary for the grounds to state the letter of the law.

The machine doesn't take cash and if that really was the intended payment method then this is sufficient grounds alone, along with the signage. Not necessary to state custom and practice on the line as a defence because it isn't, but rather mitigation if accepting technical wrongdoing.

I'd leave that and the grounds info out and make a more focused third appeal. The third appeal is not a test to see who is very clever or not, so avoid the temptation to lose focus and instead concentrate on the two matters which are certainly contrary to the relevant Regulations which render the PF unlawful.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I am presuming the machine in the picture doesn’t issue ‘Promise to Pay’ notices for when a passenger wants to pay in cash?

I believe she usually pays with change but not exclusively, depending on what she has in her purse at the time.

If she had cash, and wanted to pay with it then this should be a straightforward appeal on that basis. It doesn’t matter whether she could have paid with something else.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am presuming the machine in the picture doesn’t issue ‘Promise to Pay’ notices for when a passenger wants to pay in cash?

No such thing as Promise to Pay on LNR. Only on Northern and I think TfW still have the concept.