Appealing a fine when I have proof of purchase

[Le Verrier]

I was recently travelling on the Elizabeth Line, and lost my train ticket, receiving a fine of £50. The revenue officer, who gave me the fine, advised me to file an appeal and told me that if I can provide proof of purchase, then I will not have to pay the fine. I showed him my bank's app, showing I had bought a ticket, which he then said was good enough for an appeal.

However, looking online, it's not clear to me whether this is enough to appeal a fine or not.

 

[Olivine]

Regardless of information given to you, no ticket, then it’s a fine. Could buy it, pass it onto a friend and then suggest the proof of purchase was for you.

 

[jfollows]

I was recently travelling on the Elizabeth Line, and lost my train ticket, receiving a fine of £50. The revenue officer, who gave me the fine, advised me to file an appeal and told me that if I can provide proof of purchase, then I will not have to pay the fine. I showed him my bank's app, showing I had bought a ticket, which he then said was good enough for an appeal.

However, looking online, it's not clear to me whether this is enough to appeal a fine or not.

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately it's an offence to be unable to show a ticket when asked (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf):

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in
Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station
directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any
discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served
by the train that you are on; or
9.2.2 To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition
10 below); or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.
If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a
Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to
provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.

and you have presumably been given a Penalty Fare.
If you could upload a copy of what you've been given then we can probably give better advice, but on the face of it, with guesswork, although you've not been fined your simplest approach is probably likely to be to pay the Penalty Fare, if that's indeed what you have been given.
You could appeal on the basis of what you were told, and you never know, your appeal might be accepted, but it probably doesn't have to be.

 

[Wolfie]

I was recently travelling on the Elizabeth Line, and lost my train ticket, receiving a fine of £50. The revenue officer, who gave me the fine, advised me to file an appeal and told me that if I can provide proof of purchase, then I will not have to pay the fine. I showed him my bank's app, showing I had bought a ticket, which he then said was good enough for an appeal.

However, looking online, it's not clear to me whether this is enough to appeal a fine or not.

It isn't. For all the train company knows your friend could be travelling with that ticket.

The best that you could hope for, but truthfully don't hold your breath, is some sort of goodwill gesture from customer services.

 

[WesternLancer]

I was recently travelling on the Elizabeth Line, and lost my train ticket, receiving a fine of £50. The revenue officer, who gave me the fine, advised me to file an appeal and told me that if I can provide proof of purchase, then I will not have to pay the fine. I showed him my bank's app, showing I had bought a ticket, which he then said was good enough for an appeal.

However, looking online, it's not clear to me whether this is enough to appeal a fine or not.

sadly in my view he has misled you and an Appeal will not succeed on this basis - but no harm in trying.

Staff on the ground often seem to say this to defuse situations and hope you will head off on your way believing you can Appeal and get the Penalty Fare over turned.

Make it 100% clear in your appeal that the member of staff who issued the Penalty stated this to you. I wonder what he would had done if you had requested the ability to record him saying that with your phone....

(Anything might be 'good enough for an Appeal' I suppose, but not the same as being good enough for an Appeal that will overturn the Penalty....)

 

[furlong]

If it's a National Rail Penalty Fare [EDIT: It is not, so this can only be referenced indirectly] then you should indeed make the appeal, reminding the appeals panel of what Parliament was told about how this situation would be handled (before there was a formal appeals system). Nowadays it falls under the 'compelling reasons' category of appeal. It's the main purpose of the appeals system in fact, to consider cases like this one so they are required to give your submissions a fair hearing.

Parliament was told originally:

What is more important, the trained, authorised personnel will be given discretion. If a person says, "I have lost my ticket"—not a completely unknown predicament, in which some of us may have found ourselves—it will be possible for the official to say, "That is all right, you can go." There will also be a 21-day discretionary period. If a notice is issued to a passenger, he will be able to put his case in writing. The matter will then be examined by the appropriate authorities at head office. There will be no attempt to bulldoze or bully passengers. If a reasonable excuse is given, discretion can be exercised by those in authority.

 

[island]

If it's a National Rail Penalty Fare

It's not. It's TfL.

 

[furlong]

It's not. It's TfL.

That's for the OP to confirm. (Location of OP is 'Reading' and if issued at the exit barriers there it would be NR.)

 

[island]

That's for the OP to confirm. (Location of OP is 'Reading' and if issued at the exit barriers there it would be NR.)

The amount at £50 even makes it clear it is TfL.

To my knowledge GWR RPIs cannot issue PFs to Elizabeth line line passengers in any event.

 

[Le Verrier]

sadly in my view he has misled you and an Appeal will not succeed on this basis - but no harm in trying.

Staff on the ground often seem to say this to defuse situations and hope you will head off on your way believing you can Appeal and get the Penalty Fare over turned.

Make it 100% clear in your appeal that the member of staff who issued the Penalty stated this to you. I wonder what he would had done if you had requested the ability to record him saying that with your phone....

(Anything might be 'good enough for an Appeal' I suppose, but not the same as being good enough for an Appeal that will overturn the Penalty....)

Thank you. I've filled an appeal and included everything he said, but I suppose I'll assume it will be rejected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

The amount at £50 even makes it clear it is TfL.

To my knowledge GWR RPIs cannot issue PFs to Elizabeth line line passengers in any event.

Yes it was from TfL.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. I've filled an appeal and included everything he said, but I suppose I'll assume it will be rejected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==


Yes it was from TfL.

worth a try! You may need to try 2nd and 3rd stage appeals if you need to be persistent.

Head back here for more advice as you need it ref the appeal stages (AIUI the clock is stopped whilst the appeal is underway but re starts when they respond)

Keep an eye on your e-mail AND spam for Appeal responses.

 

[island]

You may need to try 2nd and 3rd stage appeals if you need to be persistent.

There's no 2nd or 3rd stage appeals for TfL.

 

[WesternLancer]

There's no 2nd or 3rd stage appeals for TfL.

Thanks for correcting me.

 

[furlong]

There's no 2nd or 3rd stage appeals for TfL.

Yes there are, but the system is different.

All second stage appeals are considered by the Investigations Appeals and Prosecutions Teamin TfL’s Compliance, Policing, Operations & Security Directorate (CPOS)
...
Final Stage Appeals – The Independent Appeals Panel (Panel)
...
The Panel operates independently of TfL and was established in consultation with London TravelWatch (LTW).
...
The Panel comprises three persons of suitable standing and relevant expertise for the task.
They are wholly independent from TfL, its subsidiaries, contractors, operators and providers
...
Any decision must take the following into account:
•the principles adopted by the TfL operators
•the legal requirements, conditions of carriage and associated regulations
•precedence from previous cases
Appeals will only be upheld if TfL have failed to follow due process or exercise appropriate discretion. This may be due to evidence that was available at the time or evidence that has come to light as part of the appeals process. In this respect, it may be that a Penalty Fare Notice was correctly issued at the time, but consequent information has deemed it suitable for the appeal to be upheld.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Yes there are, but the system is different.

But I thought TfL didn't do out-of-court payments?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

But I thought TfL didn't do out-of-court payments?

There's a difference between penalty fares (appealable, and being discussed here) and out of court settlements (not appealable in that if you don't like the offer you can go to court - but not being discussed here).

 

[AlbertBeale]

There's a difference between penalty fares (appealable, and being discussed here) and out of court settlements (not appealable in that if you don't like the offer you can go to court - but not being discussed here).

I didn't realise that TfL did PFs - or is that just the case on Crossrail/LO? (In which case it's another paradox given the way TfL try to treat the former like a tube line...)

 

[skyhigh]

I didn't realise that TfL did PFs - or is that just the case on Crossrail/LO? (In which case it's another paradox given the way TfL try to treat the former like a tube line...)

Penalty fares can be issued on Bus, Tube, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Penalty fares can be issued on Bus, Tube, DLR, London Overground and Elizabeth line.

In similar situations as TOCs do, presumably? I hadn't realised - I'm just used to posts here saying TfL are threatening court, and rarely settle out of court, etc etc. I hadn't remembered previous cases here with specifically TfL and specifically PFs. Maybe I haven't been paying attention!

 

[nw1]

sadly in my view he has misled you and an Appeal will not succeed on this basis - but no harm in trying.

Staff on the ground often seem to say this to defuse situations and hope you will head off on your way believing you can Appeal and get the Penalty Fare over turned.

Make it 100% clear in your appeal that the member of staff who issued the Penalty stated this to you. I wonder what he would had done if you had requested the ability to record him saying that with your phone....

(Anything might be 'good enough for an Appeal' I suppose, but not the same as being good enough for an Appeal that will overturn the Penalty....)

To be fair on the member of staff they may have genuinely thought it would be enough evidence, and didn't think of the "friend has ticket" scenario - so it could be a training issue with the company, rather than malintent by the staff.

 

[reb0118]

In similar situations as TOCs do, presumably? I hadn't realised - I'm just used to posts here saying TfL are threatening court, and rarely settle out of court, etc etc. I hadn't remembered previous cases here with specifically TfL and specifically PFs. Maybe I haven't been paying attention!

TfL will regularly use penalty fares for single incidences of minor ticketing irregularities including no ticket or lost ticket scenarios.

They will invariably not use them for high end evasion such as e.g. the misuse of Freedom Passes & Staff Nominee Passes.