Appeal Rejected Even with A Valid Ticket

[Verrideo]

Hi,
any assistance greatly appreciated.
I was issued a penalty notice by Northern Rail because I was unable to produce my ticket upon exiting the station. Nothing unusual there. The thing is I did have a ticket and knew it at the time I just couldn't find it on my phone. I had purchased it using the trainline app the night before but when I opened the app at the station the ticket wasn't there and although I did try for a while at the station to find it, I failed. I have since found the ticket, I had just bought the ticket not under my normal account on the trainline app and had paid using googelpay which meant the ticket had gone to my google email address which I don't use and didn't think to check at the time.
I have since launched an appeal through penaltyservices who seem to be dealing with the matter. I provided them with all this information including the valid ticket and emails etc showing the purchase and they rejected my appeal on the grounds the rules say I have to show it at the time at the station.
I have to say this all feels very unfair. I don't think the penalty system was put in place to fine people who genuinely bought a ticket regardless of the exact policy wording. If having a valid ticket isn't a reason to appeal I don't really see what the use of an appeals system is. What would be a valid reason?
Anyone been in a similar situation or can offer any advice on where to take this for a just outcome.

Thanks

 

[jfollows]

It is unfortunate, but the conditions of travel (https://assets.ctfassets.net/e8xgeg...e9b4e6/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf) state

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1 To charge you the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or to a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or
9.2.2 To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below); or
9.2.3 To report you for prosecution.
If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.

and being unable to present your ticket when required is the cause of your problem.
If they changed the rules to state something along the lines of "it's OK not to show a ticket on demand as long as you can provide it later" they would open themselves up to significantly increased fraud.
I'm not unsympathetic, but unfortunately you couldn't comply with the rules as they stand, so technically Northern is correct, and you're probably best advised to minimise your losses and pay up now.

 

[AdamWW]

Hi,
any assistance greatly appreciated.
I was issued a penalty notice by Northern Rail because I was unable to produce my ticket upon exiting the station. Nothing unusual there. The thing is I did have a ticket and knew it at the time I just couldn't find it on my phone. I had purchased it using the trainline app the night before but when I opened the app at the station the ticket wasn't there and although I did try for a while at the station to find it, I failed. I have since found the ticket, I had just bought the ticket not under my normal account on the trainline app and had paid using googelpay which meant the ticket had gone to my google email address which I don't use and didn't think to check at the time.
I have since launched an appeal through penaltyservices who seem to be dealing with the matter. I provided them with all this information including the valid ticket and emails etc showing the purchase and they rejected my appeal on the grounds the rules say I have to show it at the time at the station.
I have to say this all feels very unfair. I don't think the penalty system was put in place to fine people who genuinely bought a ticket regardless of the exact policy wording. If having a valid ticket isn't a reason to appeal I don't really see what the use of an appeals system is. What would be a valid reason?
Anyone been in a similar situation or can offer any advice on where to take this for a just outcome.

Thanks

Unfortunately the requirement is to produce a valid ticket on request, so based on what you said the penalty is valid. This may seem (and may be) unfair but that's the rule that applies and what the appeals process will presumably be looking at. It does seem somewhat harsh and I would be unhappy if this happened to me.

I believe there are two further stages of appeal and while I don't think based on what you said that they would be successful I can't see that there is much to lose by trying.

Since you asked, there are many reasons for appeal that would be valid.

Examples would be where you'd shown a valid ticket but for some reason it was thought not to be, where you couldn't have purchased a ticket before boarding, or potentially if any of the requirements for a penalty fare to be issued weren't present (such as suitable notices at the station where you boarded).

 

[Verrideo]

I agree entirely, the penalty is definitely valid under the policy wording without doubt. As @AdamWW said it just seems harsh. I would have thought they would extend some leniency given the circumstances. Even the police are more lenient than this when dealing with crimes.
The whole thing was very rushed with the officials at the station as well really, I wasn't really given enough time to work out my mistake.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree entirely, the penalty is definitely valid under the policy wording without doubt. As @AdamWW said it just seems harsh. I would have thought they would extend some leniency given the circumstances. Even the police are more lenient than this when dealing with crimes.

No they’re not, when the crime is one of strict liability. You’ve actually committed a criminal offence under the railway bylaw 18:

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

No intent is needed and it works the same way as speeding does with the police. Whether you meant to go 37mph instead of 30 is neither here nor there, and I’m afraid the bylaws on the railway work the same way. Fortunately this was disposed of this time by way of Penalty Fare, and you have no grounds to appeal that I can see. Sorry.

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes and to be clear I personally do think it's a barmy way to treat people and if it were up to me this isn't the way it would work but...

 

[furlong]

At which station did you begin your journey? Check the signage requirements as a substantial number of stations inexcusably fail to comply with the regulations at the moment.

Then make a second appeal both on your existing grounds - that the system was never intended to penalise people who had paid their fare (though it was accepted this would sometimes be unavoidable, one reason the appeals mechanism exists is to assess these situations) - and add in any problems with the signage and/or paperwork that you can find.

When you look at the regulations, you'll see that you have to make your argument that "there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare" - essentially that you had paid your fare before you began your journey but both your and the inspector's lack of familiarity with the rail industry's ticketing technology got in the way of proving that at the time, but that you can prove this now.

 

[Verrideo]

@furlong Thanks for the advice. The journey began at Todmorden station.

 

[some bloke]

I had purchased it using the trainline app the night before but when I opened the app at the station the ticket wasn't there

Maybe have a look at exactly what the app, email and any other information show about where to find the ticket when you book using Google Pay, and if you think it should have been clearer write to Trainline asking for a response.

If you include wording/screenshots/a response from Trainline agreeing something should be clearer, that may help an appeal on the ground mentioned by @furlong about compelling reasons.
Can you find any other stories of similar problems on the web?

If the appeal body has accepted your claim that you did have a ticket, a cheeky long shot might be to ask the company if they are happy for the penalty fare to stand.

I wasn't really given enough time to work out my mistake.

Can you be more specific?