Appeal Railway Fine ?

[Helmp]

I brought an open return ticket. The outwards journey expired midnight and the returning is at the end of next month.

The issue is that I continued section of my journey to on the following day making the ticket expired. When I continued my journey in the person at the barriers let me through telling me to the people explain that there’s a mix up with the tickets.

At the train to the inspector let me go at the basis that I should have never been let in and should have been told to go to the ticket office to get my ticket sorted and it was the fault of the person that let me in.

Only when I reached my destination the person at the barrier I was told that it was an invalid ticket and got fined a penalty.

Is there a way to appeal based on this? Or something I can do? I have my railcard, I payed for the journey. I feel like I should have been better advised initially and got my ticket sorted.

 

[soccermad]

Did you get a penalty fare at the time ?

If so post it on hear with your details and serial number hidden

We can then advise if the penalty fare paperwork is compliant to the regulations .

If it is compliant then an appeal is likely to fail as you did travel on the 2nd day without a valid ticket

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Helmp. Welcome to the forum. What ticket type did you actually have and what did you pay? Also, what were the origin station and the destination station? "Open return ticket" is a little vague. Can mean subtly different things, which may impact on your situation.

 

[walkingsophie]

The times of the trains would also be helpful to know, many tickets are valid for a few hours after midnight the next day

 

[furlong]

Yes there are several potential ways to appeal but we need the complete details to suggest what's appropriate.

 

[Helmp]

@Helmp. Welcome to the forum. What ticket type did you actually have and what did you pay? Also, what were the origin station and the destination station? "Open return ticket" is a little vague. Can mean subtly different things, which may impact on your situation.

Hello, I had an off-peak return 16-25 railcard, ticket from Leeds to Wolverhampton. Return within 1 month. I continued my journey from Stockport at around 11:30am, to Wolverhampton, the following day. I paid 46.95 pounds for my tickets. I got a penalty fare at Wolverhampton which is 18 pounds + penalty.

 

[185143]

The outbound portion was not valid, unless it was not possible for you to complete your journey the previous day.

But the penalty fare amount rings alarm bells. Plus, assuming you travelled on a direct XC train, CrossCountry are not a Penalty Fare TOC. The experts on here, which I am not, will want to see any paperwork issued for sure, with details such as your name and address suitably redacted.

 

[methecooldude]

I continued my journey from Stockport at around 11:30am, to Wolverhampton, the following day.

This isn't valid, you can't break your journey to continue it the next day, unless allowed by the ticket type.
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LDS&dest=WVH&rlc=YNG&rte=312&tkt=SVR shows:

VALIDITY
One journey in each direction to be made within:​
Outward Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 day)​
Return Validity:​	AS ADVERTISED (1 month)​

But the penalty fare amount rings alarm bells.

Indeed it does, we need to see the paperwork

 

[furlong]

And what time did you travel on the first day?
We do need ALL the details to help you appeal. All the trains you caught. A copy of the penalty fare you received.

(Also I'm surprised they issued a Penalty Fare on arrival at Wolverhampton as last time I was there there was large signage allowing anyone to pay without penalty on arrival.
If you get the chance, take a look for signs visible from the platform side and see if it it still says that or not.)

 

[Helmp]

And what time did you travel on the first day?
We do need ALL the details to help you appeal. All the trains you caught. A copy of the penalty fare you received.

(Also I'm surprised they issued a Penalty Fare on arrival at Wolverhampton as last time I was there there was large signage allowing anyone to pay without penalty on arrival.
If you get the chance, take a look for signs visible from the platform side and see if it it still says that or not.)

Today was a strange one in Wolverhampton, for once as well as the regular barriers there were extra people at the gates checking everyone and issuing tickets, which I’ve never experienced before at this station. I will post my penalty ticket asap. I’m wondering if I’m able to appeal based on being told I can get on the train and continue my journey by two different ticket inspectors. Yesterday I caught the 8:15pm trainpenne express from Leeds to Manchester Victoria.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yesterday I caught the 8:15pm trainpenne express from Leeds to Manchester Victoria.

Which arrived Manchester Victoria at around 21:10. I'd say that it was still possible to get over to Manchester Piccadilly in time for the 22:03 XC service onward to Wolverhampton and so complete the overall journey on the same day. Not as if it couldn't be done.

 

[furlong]

And how did you get to Stockport?
(Please just give us all the information about the journey instead of drip-feeding it like this!)

 

[Hadders]

The outward portion of an Off-Peak Return is valid for outward travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If you cannot complete your journey on the same day you are allowed to finish it the following day (i.e. until 04:29 on day 3). Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days.

This link to a very old post was written by someone who at the time was authoratitive in these matters, and I don't believe the position has changed since then.

Revised NRCoC

Is overnight break of journey really that common? It's not something I have ever considered, even though I know I could do it. I once did a journey York-Weymouth with an overnight stay at Slough. Unfortunately I got a train from Paddington a time that was before the last Waterloo to Weymouth...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Helmp]

And how did you get to Stockport?
(Please just give us all the information about the journey instead of drip-feeding it like this!)

Sorry first time using this forum, not sure what information is useful. I didn’t get to Stockport by train, it was getting late so I stayed overnight in Manchester and went by taxi to Stockport station in the morning.

Did you get a penalty fare at the time ?

Here I’ve attached my penalty fare. It says it was issued on train, but it was not, I got it in on arrival when I reached Wolverhampton at the gates. Also says I had no ticket which isn’t really true either.

All the trains you caught.

I caught the 8:15pm trains from Leeds to Manchester Victoria. Then next day I caught the 11:33 am train from Stockport to Wolverhampton.

take a look for signs visible from the platform side and see if it it still says that

will do.

you are allowed to finish it the following day

Can I appeal based of this ?

 

[gray1404]

I am assuming you travelled from Stockport to Wolverhampton on a direct Cross Country service? You can appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations. This is because you arrived at Wolverhampton on a Cross Country service. Cross Country do not operate a Penalty Fare Scheme. Furthermore, the train you alighted from has not called at Tamworth.

 

[Helmp]

I am assuming you travelled from Stockport to Wolverhampton on a direct Cross Country service? You can appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations. This is because you arrived at Wolverhampton on a Cross Country service. Cross Country do not operate a Penalty Fare Scheme. Furthermore, the train you alighted from has not called at Tamworth.

Yes it was the cross country service, thank you. Can I ask about some guidance on what things I should or shouldn’t not mention for my appeal or somewhere I can go to have a better idea?

 

[Haywain]

Your appeal should be focussed on the fact that you travelled on a XC service and they are not a PF operator, and that you had not travelled from or through or even near Tamworth. Don't worry about the ticket and break of journey as that will just complicate matters.

 

[John R]

Do post a draft here first, as experts here will ensure you cover all the relevant points in a way that should make it clear what the issue is.

 

[furlong]

So this is just bizarre!

Firstly, given that you commenced the journey so late the previous evening, it was reasonable to stay overnight in Manchester rather than race for the last Wolverhampton train and so the ticket ought to have been accepted on the second day as described in the linked thread. This provision is no longer written into the conditions but the existence of a note covering a related situation can only mean it's intended not to interpret this aspect of the conditions strictly but to allow for there to be reasonable exceptions which may extend beyond the example in the note. As such the first two staff acted correctly in accepting the ticket without further payment or any need to endorse it and the third person should have done the same.

But secondly, the Penalty Fare is unenforceable for multiple reasons. At this stage you might as well appeal against the Penalty Fare on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations for multiple reasons.

The simplest to argue is that you travelled via Manchester and did not board the train at Tamworth.

Further,

10(5) A collector may only charge a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) to a person who is travelling by, present on or leaving a train if the collector has been authorised to charge a penalty fare by the operator of that train.

For this PF to be valid, WMT will need to prove to the appeals panel that Crosscountry authorised it to charge Penalty Fares.
Stockport would also need to have PF posters bearing the XC logo.

Crosscountry doesn't do Penalty Fares, so can't have authorised WMT to issue this, and there shouldn't be PF posters anywhere bearing its logo.

We've seen similar problems on the forum before, where, quite correctly, the system used to issue the PF won't issue one from the passenger's origin because it wouldn't be valid to do so, and yet the collector seemingly chooses some different station and makes a false declaration in order to impose an unlawful penalty. (In my view, this is a corrupt practice which should lead to dismissal and prosecution.)

 

[gray1404]

In a nutshell your penalty fare is invalid because Cross Country do not operate a Penalty Fare system.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Pardon my curiosity, but did you catch the wrong train at Leeds? On 29 May there was a 2015 TPE departure to Manchester but there was also a 2015 XC departure to Bristol Temple Meads, which with a change at Birmingham New Street would have got you to Wolverhampton at 22.42. Or was it always your intention to break the journey at Manchester? This question is not relevant to the issue of the Penalty Fare, which undoubtedly should be appealed as advised by others.

 

[SuspectUsual]

We've seen similar problems on the forum before, where, quite correctly, the system used to issue the PF won't issue one from the passenger's origin because it wouldn't be valid to do so, and yet the collector seemingly chooses some different station and makes a false declaration in order to impose an unlawful penalty. (In my view, this is a corrupt practice which should lead to dismissal and prosecution.)

I wonder if Tamworth is the first station alphabetically in the WMT penalty fare system after Stockport?

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if Tamworth is the first station alphabetically in the WMT penalty fare system after Stockport?

Stockport wouldn't be in their PF system.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Stockport wouldn't be in their PF system.

That's my point. The bloke types Stockport and the system finds the nearest station that is in their system

 

[AlterEgo]

That's my point. The bloke types Stockport and the system finds the nearest station that is in their system

Begs the question of where Sutton Coldfield and Tame Bridge Parkway went, but we digress! Either way the PF is not valid as XC aren't a Penalty Fares operator.

 

[John R]

Pardon my curiosity, but did you catch the wrong train at Leeds? On 29 May there was a 2015 TPE departure to Manchester but there was also a 2015 XC departure to Bristol Temple Meads, which with a change at Birmingham New Street would have got you to Wolverhampton at 22.42. Or was it always your intention to break the journey at Manchester? This question is not relevant to the issue of the Penalty Fare, which undoubtedly should be appealed as advised by others.

The ticket was routed "Via Manchester", so I think we can rule out the possibility of the OP catching the wrong train.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Begs the question of where Sutton Coldfield and Tame Bridge Parkway went, but we digress! Either way the PF is not valid as XC aren't a Penalty Fares operator.

Ah, fair enough - I was just trying to find a halfway rational reason for the PF having Tamworth on it, but clearly it's not what I thought.

My other thought is that the receipt the OP was given isn't for their PF, but as you say it's immaterial. (The red on the left hand side of the paper used to signify the beginning/end of the till roll when I worked in retail, so has the RPO had to change the roll and got confused if there were multiple people being given PFs?)

 

[gray1404]

The RPI clearly didn't have a clue. They have issues it as having being issued in the train, when I was in fact at the station.

There is also a possibility that the appeals body may cancel the penalty fare elements but insists that the rail fare is still payable. I would therefore make it totally clear that you have not come from Tamworth.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The ticket was routed "Via Manchester", so I think we can rule out the possibility of the OP catching the wrong train.

Well spotted. Considerably cheaper than the CrossCountry version.

 

[Helmp]

Do post a draft here first, as experts here will ensure you cover all the relevant points in a way that should make it clear what the issue is.

"
I am appealing on the basis that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations.


I was travelling via Manchester on a CrossCountry service to Wolverhampton. I was issued with the notice at Wolverhampton when travelling on a CrossCountry service, which does not operate a Penalty Fare Scheme.


Additionally, the notice refers to Tamworth despite Tamworth not forming any part of my journey. I did not travel through, board at, or alight at Tamworth at any stage.


Given this, I believe the Penalty Fare is invalid and request that the circumstances surrounding the issue of the Penalty Fare Notice be reviewed and that the notice be cancelled."


Should I also show my ticket or say more details? Thank you all, you have been a great help!

Or was it always your intention to break the journey at Manchester?

No problem, and yes it also a part of my ticket.

other thought is that the receipt the OP was given isn't for their PF,

Just to clarify, this is 100% my PF. The personal details they took from me matches the system.