Appeal a fine.

[amaaal]

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some advice about a railway fine I received today.

I was travelling with my aunty (she doesn’t speak English) from Frizinghall to Leeds. We hadn’t used the train in a long time, and we were not aware of the current policy that you have to buy a “Promise to Pay” card before boarding if you don’t have a ticket.

We had cash with us but no card. In the past, we’ve always just paid the conductor on the train, so we thought we could do the same this time. No one came to check tickets during the journey. When we arrived at Leeds, we went straight to the ticket office to buy a ticket, but instead we were issued a fine.

I explained that we genuinely didn’t know about this rule, that we had cash ready to pay, and that this has never happened to us before. My aunty is a widow and a pensioner, and I just wanted to take her out after a long time.

Can anyone guide me on how best to appeal this fine? Has anyone been in a similar situation?

Thank you for any advice.

 

[30907]

You were presumably issued with Penalty Fares - £100 plus the fare, each, reduced to £50 if paid within 3 weeks (or appealed).

The present Penalty Fare system in West Yorks has been in operation for 6 or 7 years, and there are plenty of bright yellow posters and signs (or there were, last time I was at Frizinghall - I could check tomorrow!). So saying that you didn't know about Promise to Pay - or that you hadn't been PF'ed before - isn't a valid ground for appeal.

Did you attempt to use the machine, and was it apparently working? If not, you have a clear get-out.

Otherwise, there may be a technical mistake in the way the PF was issued, and there is also an error on the notices. If you upload a copy of the notice (personal details removed!) someone more expert than me can advise if you have grounds for appealing.

Otherwise, I am afraid you will have to pay - but wait for other comments first, you have 21 days, more if you appeal.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

Regulation 16 of the Penalty Fares Regulations sets out the only possible grounds for appealing a Penalty Fare:

(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;
(b) the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;
(c) the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or
(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

So as you can see, not knowing about the Penalty Fares system isn't a defence. It is highly unlikely to be accepted as a 'compelling reason' under paragraph (d) - since everyone would otherwise claim ignorance to get out of paying...

That being said, it would be useful to see a redacted copy of the Penalty Fare - errors are frequently made when issuing them (e.g. charging you too much, or not including mandatory information) which mean you can make an appeal under paragraph (a) on the basis that the Regulations' requirements weren't complied with. If you can show us a copy then we can establish whether this might be the case.

The other ground of appeal you might want to consider is based on the signage at the station not meeting the requirements of the Regulations, which would also fall within subparagraph (a) above. There have been numerous threads where this has been discussed; the best draft of such an appeal I'm aware of is here (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189).

Similarly there could be arguments around the placement of the signage not being "readily visible" as required by Regulation 8(4), although it sounds like @30907 is suggesting from personal experience that this wouldn't apply.

There are three stages of appeal and I would encourage you to pursue all three stages, as there is no cost or risk associated with this. The 'clock' on the 21 day period for the reduced penalty of £50 vs £100 is stopped during any time that you're awaiting a decision on one of your three appeals. We often see appeals accepted by the second or third stage appeals bodies, even where an initial or second appeal is rejected.

Hope that helps!

 

[30907]

Having boarded a train at Frizinghall towards Shipley this morning I can confirm:
signage is prominent and has the standard (non-compliant) wording
Promise to Pay appears on the home screen of the ticket machine, which was working (and is popular with the local litter bugs judging by the number of PtP tickets on the platform

 

[soccermad]

So, does the non compliant wording invalidate the PF issuance in this case ?

 

[Watershed]

So, does the non compliant wording invalidate the PF issuance in this case ?

I would argue it does. Either way, it is definitely a ground that can be raised in the appeal. In our experience the first and second stage appeals are often little more than a box-ticking exercise, and it's only the third stage where appeals are properly considered.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi everyone,

I’m looking for some advice about a railway fine I received today.

I was travelling with my aunty (she doesn’t speak English) from Frizinghall to Leeds. We hadn’t used the train in a long time, and we were not aware of the current policy that you have to buy a “Promise to Pay” card before boarding if you don’t have a ticket.

We had cash with us but no card. In the past, we’ve always just paid the conductor on the train, so we thought we could do the same this time. No one came to check tickets during the journey. When we arrived at Leeds, we went straight to the ticket office to buy a ticket, but instead we were issued a fine.

I explained that we genuinely didn’t know about this rule, that we had cash ready to pay, and that this has never happened to us before. My aunty is a widow and a pensioner, and I just wanted to take her out after a long time.

Can anyone guide me on how best to appeal this fine? Has anyone been in a similar situation?

Thank you for any advice.

@amaaal
Obviously you have received some advice here on how best to appeal. However, don't miss the deadline for the prompt payment discount of £50 on the Penalty.

If you submit an Appeal it stops the clock on that whilst the appeal is considered (and that pauses again if you proceed to the 2nd and 3rd stages which you may need to do)
or alternatively
You can pay it now to ensure you get the discount, because you can still appeal and if your appeals were successful you would be refunded what you paid.

You have my sympathy with this - I'm sure your aunty really appreciated being taken for a trip out and I'm sorry to read things were spoiled by this.

Head back here if you need more help or advice as things progress (for example you could post up your draft appeal wording here for people to check before you submit it if you think that would be of help).