AP ticket with doubling back

[caliston]

Posted this to uk.railway and was asked to also post it here for your amusement...

Courtesy of NXEC I have an Advance ticket booked for tomorrow (26 Sep):

Depart:
Liphook, 12:09
Change at:
Guildford arr. 12:32 dep. 12:43
Reading arr. 13:19 dep. 13:33
Slough arr. 13:54 dep. 13:57
Reading arr. 14:20 dep. 14:27
Bristol Temple Meads arr. 15:39 dep. 15:54
Cardiff Central arr. 16:41 dep. 16:51
Arrive:
Cardiff Queen Street, 16:54

Sadly I'm not going to be able to use it, so I can't savour the exciting detour to Slough and back. This ticket was a fiver cheaper than non-doubling-back later trains connecting into the same Reading-Bristol leg, which is reserved along with Bristol-Cardiff, but no other legs. I haven't actually seen the ticket itself, but from the above I think it's routed AP SLOUGH.

Some questions for the Routeing Guide experts:

1. For an AP ticket, does the prohibition about doubling back even apply?

1a. What about the 'tails' to an AP ticket where there are no booked trains? Are those controlled by the Routeing Guide, or is it compulsory to take trains on the routes given? The double-back here isn't reserved.

2. I haven't seen the ticket. But since it's AP from Reading there may be no Maltese Cross on it. So would I have to travel via Clapham Junction, WLL, Acton, Slough, Reading to satisfy the conditions without doubling back or passing through London?

2a. Or is this just a ticket that would normally be Route London but the journey planner has found me a faster way? Would it be legitimate to join my booked train one station early (at Paddington)?

3. Could I legitimately skip the bounce Reading-Slough-Reading?

4. How much of a fight would FGW put up if they got to hear of it? In reality the only person to notice might be the gripper on the Guildford-Reading train.

Any thoughts?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

1. For an AP ticket, does the prohibition about doubling back even apply?

Yes....

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES
Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is
not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in
the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the
same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the
journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to
choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a
particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which
pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

....And no. It is quite possible that this route is the shortest route available and so the routeing guide doesn't come into it

1a. What about the 'tails' to an AP ticket where there are no booked trains? Are those controlled by the Routeing Guide, or is it compulsory to take trains on the routes given? The double-back here isn't reserved.

The routeing guide applies to the entire journey, however the shortest route applies before taking into consideration the routeing guide. IMO, unreserved portions of the journey (where the ticket is not routed '+connections' should use either the intended service or other non reserved services within the time available.

2. I haven't seen the ticket. But since it's AP from Reading there may be no Maltese Cross on it. So would I have to travel via Clapham Junction, WLL, Acton, Slough, Reading to satisfy the conditions without doubling back or passing through London?

The Advance tickets are routed '+AP Slough' therefore routeing via London was/is an option.

2a. Or is this just a ticket that would normally be Route London but the journey planner has found me a faster way? Would it be legitimate to join my booked train one station early (at Paddington)?

It is entirely possible the journey planner has just found the quickest way from A-B via C.

You must use your booked trains as they have been booked, if you board a reserved train at an earlier or later point without purchasing a new ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket.

3. Could I legitimately skip the bounce Reading-Slough-Reading?

Yes, the guard on the following train and preceding train will not know you have not done that journey and the staff on those trains are unaware you are due to travel.

4. How much of a fight would FGW put up if they got to hear of it? In reality the only person to notice might be the gripper on the Guildford-Reading train.

There is nothing the 'gripper' can do if it is the shortest route.

 

[yorkie]

Yes....

If the prohibition on doubling back applies AND he is bound to get the trains specified (which double back) he is in a no-win situation?

I'd say the doubling back rule is irrelevant on AP tickets as you are bound by what is printed on the tickets or other "valid travel itinerary".

....And no. It is quite possible that this route is the shortest route available and so the routeing guide doesn't come into it

The shortest route? Impossible. The shortest route via Slough? Hmm.. maybe!

The routeing guide applies to the entire journey, however the shortest route applies before taking into consideration the routeing guide.

True

IMO, unreserved portions of the journey (where the ticket is not routed '+connections' should use either the intended service or other non reserved services within the time available.

I agree.

The Advance tickets are routed '+AP Slough' therefore routeing via London was/is an option.

Agreed. I believe it was intended to be used either via London or via Kensington Olympia, hence only limiting to via Slough. I suppose they could stop doubling-back journeys by limiting it to '+AP Ealing Broadway' this would then make it infeasibly long to double back and still allow Kenny O or London as possibilities.

It is entirely possible the journey planner has just found the quickest way from A-B via C.

I think that is exactly what has happened, yes.

You must use your booked trains as they have been booked, if you board a reserved train at an earlier or later point without purchasing a new ticket, you will be treated as having joined the train without a valid ticket.

Is there a source for that? I don't think it should matter exactly where you change trains as long as you travel on the correct trains.

Yes, the guard on the following train and preceding train will not know you have not done that journey and the staff on those trains are unaware you are due to travel.

I don't think any guard would enforce doubling back anyway.

There is nothing the 'gripper' can do if it is the shortest route.

Agreed, especially if it's on the itinerary.

 

[Mojo]

If the route is "AP Slough" then as far as I can see the system will try and route any journey through Slough even though it wouldn't be logical. The only other way would be a walk across Windsor and then the shuttle to Slough but wouldn't that give you problems on the first leg of your journey?

I wonder if you were trying to buy a normal ticket and tried to specify a 'via Slough' what way it would take you?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the prohibition on doubling back applies AND he is bound to get the trains specified (which double back) he is in a no-win situation?

I'd say the doubling back rule is irrelevant on AP tickets as you are bound by what is printed on the tickets or other "valid travel itinerary".

My thinking is that the routeing guide apllies before the reservation is made (ie finding a valid route), but the shortest route is a valid route regardless of the instructions in the routeing guide.

The shortest route? Impossible. The shortest route via Slough? Hmm.. maybe!

The shortest route that complies with the ticket is always valid, this would avoid doubling back in almost all cases, but in this case it has to take in Slough as a point along the way.

If a ticket was bought where travelling via London was the shortest route, but it was routed 'Not London', would you consider the ticket not valid by this route (despite what the rules say about it always being valid), or would the shortest valid route (not via London) always be valid? If the latter, this ticket might be valid to doubleback through Reading, regardless how stupid it sounds, if it is the shortest route.

Is there a source for that? I don't think it should matter exactly where you change trains as long as you travel on the correct trains.

What you think doesn't matter, I agree that it shouldn't matter in this case, but thats not what the rules say/imply. A guard/train manager might use his noggin and allow it, but equally if he follows the rules exactly, he will know the passenger is not booked on that train at that point in his journey and may consider it a change of travel plans and therefore travelling without a valid ticket. I would rather err on the side of caution then say it will be allowed when there is no clear evidence.