Anytime ticket - Virgin 1710 Euston to MK

[mgood]

For some reason the 1710 service from Eus to MK doesn't come up when you search on the Virgin fares site. Is an Anytime ticket valid on this service even though it doesn't show as an option ?

Thanks

 

[Kite159]

This service appears to be pick up only at Milton Keynes Central

 

[Merseysider]

No, as Virgin do not convey passengers from London to Milton Keynes on this service.

The first calling point for passengers travelling from London is Nuneaton.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

A ticket to Milton Keynes is only valid on this service if you also have a other ticket valid for onward travel (at least to Nuneaton) from Milton Keynes, at the point you board at Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A ticket to Milton Keynes is only valid on this service if you also have a other ticket valid for onward travel (at least to Nuneaton) from Milton Keynes, at the point you board at Euston.

And even that is debatable, unless one of the tickets is a season ticket or a rover or similar. It is very unlikely the Euston barrier staff will let you board with a combination of simple single/return tickets. If you're doing it to take advantage of MKC having no evening peak restrictions northbound, you're even more likely to be challenged.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And even that is debatable, unless one of the tickets is a season ticket or a rover or similar. It is very unlikely the Euston barrier staff will let you board with a combination of simple single/return tickets. If you're doing it to take advantage of MKC having no evening peak restrictions northbound, you're even more likely to be challenged.

Whether or not Euston staff will let you on is a very poor indicator of whether or not it is actually permitted. As we all know, they have just about the same understanding on ticket restrictions as a foreigner who's never seen a UK train ticket before.

I don't see what all the fuss about MKC is about: you can't get off there when coming from Euston but that's it. If you have a combination of ticket and aren't exiting there I see no provision in the NRCoT for them to be permitted to delay your journey because of the pick-up only restriction. I would, personally speaking, put in a delay compensation claim if I had been delayed by the requisite amount.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see what all the fuss about MKC is about: you can't get off there when coming from Euston but that's it. If you have a combination of ticket and aren't exiting there I see no provision in the NRCoT for them to be permitted to delay your journey because of the pick-up only restriction. I would, personally speaking, put in a delay compensation claim if I had been delayed by the requisite amount.

I think it's rather debatable, to be honest. It all centres around whether a pick-up only/set-down only call is a call for the purposes of changing from one ticket to another. As the reason for it is revenue-related, I would suggest it does not, and therefore for a split you need a full passenger call to be valid unless the split would be valid without any call.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think it's rather debatable, to be honest. It all centres around whether a pick-up only/set-down only call is a call for the purposes of changing from one ticket to another. As the reason for it is revenue-related, I would suggest it does not, and therefore for a split you need a full passenger call to be valid unless the split would be valid without any call.

If it's ambiguous, it must be interpreted in the consumer's favour. We can't have ambiguous clauses being taken as always in the railway's favour. If the railway doesn't like it this way, they should make it unambiguous and clarify what exactly "calls at" means. At the moment, I think the fact that the train is scheduled to stop at MKC, the doors are scheduled to be released, and that passengers can get on suffices for it to qualify as a calling point. Passing through at speed, or an unscheduled call, does not count IMO.

 

[Mag_seven]

So to keep it simple if I come along with a Euston to Milton Keynes single and a Milton Keynes to Nuneaton single, is that split valid on this train? Since MK is not a valid alighting point I would argue that it is not a valid split in the same way that it would not be valid on a train that runs non-stop Euston-Nuneaton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So to keep it simple if I come along with a Euston to Milton Keynes single and a Milton Keynes to Nuneaton single, is that split valid on this train? Since MK is not a valid alighting point I would argue that it is not a valid split in the same way that it would not be valid on a train that runs non-stop Euston-Nuneaton.

I would say it is questionable, and almost certain that the barrier staff will not let you on.

 

[Mag_seven]

I would say it is questionable, and almost certain that the barrier staff will not let you on.

I would go further and state that it is quite clear it is not valid, putting aside any issues about barrier staff.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would go further and state that it is quite clear it is not valid, putting aside any issues about barrier staff.

But we know the condition for whether or not a split is permissible - either one ticket must be a 'reusable' ticket (i.e. season, rover, zonal ticket etc.) or you must ensure that "the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another."

I don't see how MKC can be said not to be a station where that train calls. The train stops there, the doors open, people get on - what on earth else would you 'call' that! In fact even the OED agrees: 'calls at' is defined (definition 6.1) as meaning 'stop at (a specified station or stations) on a particular route.'

The train undoubtedly stops at MKC so there is really no debate to be had. Undefined words take their ordinary meaning in everyday language, and the OED is indeed frequently used by the Courts to obtain a definition for undefined words.

As I have said, any suggestion that it must also be possible (legally) to exit there would have to be explicitly written in the condition, or the term 'call' would have to be specifically defined as such. Neither's the case, and so it's far too ambiguous for the TOCs to be able to claim that splitting tickets there is not allowed.

The fact that the barrier line at Euston will not have any of it doesn't matter (unless you actually want a combination of tickets that you know will get you into that train). You will be suitably entitled to compensation if or when you are held up, and ultimately Virgin would have to improve their training if conflicts arose often enough.

 

[Mag_seven]

The train undoubtedly stops at MKC so there is really no debate to be had. Undefined words take their ordinary meaning in everyday language, and the OED is indeed frequently used by the Courts to obtain a definition for undefined words.

As I have said, any suggestion that it must also be possible (legally) to exit there would have to be explicitly written in the condition, or the term 'call' would have to be specifically defined as such. Neither's the case, and so it's far too ambiguous for the TOCs to be able to claim that splitting tickets there is not allowed.

I don't think there is any ambiguity here - the TT clearly states the the train calls at MKC "to pick up passengers only".

 

[yorkie]

The train needs to "call" for such a combination to be valid; in the a sense of an exception for pick up only I don't think it could be argued the train does not "call"

For set down only trains, the train is clearly advertised as calling at the station where the customer joins the train, so there can't be any arguments about that. Some trains that are supposedly "set down only" are even advertised as picking up stations at certain screens (e.g. Stratford towards Liverpool Street).

Really, "pick up only" is intended to stop/deter people alighting there, while "set down only" is intended to stop/deter people boarding , usually for timekeeping and/or load management reasons, so I don't see there being an issue.

The issue really is that Virgin don't want people travelling from Euston to Milton Keynes on this train.

 

[cactustwirly]

Personally I think having pick up only/set down only stops is a load of bollocks!
What probably happens now is that the MK passengers are all crammed into rammed WMT services, and the VT services carry fresh air.
If they removed the restrictions the load of passengers would be more evenly distributed.

 

[yorkie]

Personally I think having pick up only/set down only stops is a load of bollocks!
What probably happens now is that the MK passengers are all crammed into rammed WMT services, and the VT services carry fresh air.
If they removed the restrictions the load of passengers would be more evenly distributed.

I think that this proposal needs to be put forward in a new thread in Speculative Ideas if it's to be discussed further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that this proposal needs to be put forward in a new thread in Speculative Ideas if it's to be discussed further.

Here you go:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/set-down-pick-up-only-at-milton-keynes-central.173600/