Anytime Short Return?

[Eric]

What is this new ticket that Northern are selling?

Offpeak short return and Anytime short return on the ticket machine was £2 and £4 more than the Anytime day return.

Why does the railway like to complicate things.

 

[krus_aragon]

What is this new ticket that Northern are selling?

Offpeak short return and Anytime short return on the ticket machine was £2 and £4 more than the Anytime day return.

Why does the railway like to complicate things.

I'd guess it's a short-period return, with the return portion valid for 3 days (or similar) rather than 30, to give passengers some of the flexibility of an open return, without leaving themselves open to people reusing the return portion as a monthly season ticket (or until it's clipped).

 

[LowLevel]

It's to stop dishonest commuters from buying an anytime return and reusing the outward portion if it doesn't get clipped. You get the same 'return another day' function of a period ticket without the temptation to criminality for shorter flows popular with commuters.

I once had one thick enough to present one to me that he had bought on board the train at the same time the previous day. His face was a picture when revenue protection appeared and escorted him off the train for questioning. Yet I have absolutely no doubt he was otherwise a decent law abiding fellow. The temptation for a free journey was obviously too much.

 

[Eric]

I'd guess it's a short-period return, with the return portion valid for 3 days (or similar) rather than 30, to give passengers some of the flexibility of an open return, without leaving themselves open to people reusing the return portion as a monthly season ticket (or until it's clipped).

But shouldn’t the anytime short return be cheaper than the anytime return?

I never knew people were abusing the anytime return return portion anymore with the new ticket capture gates and revenue staff.

I know someone who once was travelling on a London - Edinburgh train and they found the return open portion of that ticket which had just been abandoned on the floor of the train.

They used that ticket twice from Leeds to York and Leeds to Newcastle.

So if the new Anytime Short tickets work then fair enough.

 

[krus_aragon]

But shouldn’t the anytime short return be cheaper than the anytime return?

I'd expect an anytime short return to be cheaper than an anytime open (one-month) return, but more expensive than an anytime day return, to reflect the flexibility it offers the passenger.

 

[yorkie]

What is this new ticket that Northern are selling?

Offpeak short return and Anytime short return on the ticket machine was £2 and £4 more than the Anytime day return.

Why does the railway like to complicate things.

It's not that new.

What is the flow (ie. origin and destination) you are looking at?

As for complexity, it's because there isn't "one size fits all' approach that would work the same for a journey like Scarborough to Hull while also being appropriate for Penzance to Inverness...

 

[BluePenguin]

It's to stop dishonest commuters from buying an anytime return and reusing the outward portion if it doesn't get clipped. You get the same 'return another day' function of a period ticket without the temptation to criminality for shorter flows popular with commuters.

I once had one thick enough to present one to me that he had bought on board the train at the same time the previous day. His face was a picture when revenue protection appeared and escorted him off the train for questioning. Yet I have absolutely no doubt he was otherwise a decent law abiding fellow. The temptation for a free journey was obviously too much.

Had he bought it from you but not remembered your face?

 

[J-P_L]

I'd guess it's a short-period return, with the return portion valid for 3 days (or similar) rather than 30, to give passengers some of the flexibility of an open return, without leaving themselves open to people reusing the return portion as a monthly season ticket (or until it's clipped).

Anytime Short Return tickets are one day validity on outward portion and the standard calendar month to return.

 

[johntea]

Ticket barriers are generally useless in preventing abuse, for example if you buy a Manchester to Garforth open return there are no barriers at Garforth to capture the ticket but the Leeds barriers will let you through time and time again during the 30 days due to the connecting journey.

Ideally they should be programmed to allow one exit and entry to allow for a single break of journey on the return but I'm not sure how simple this would actually be to implement, even then if the ticket was unmarked the manual staff would probably just let someone straight through!

 

[ainsworth74]

Anytime Short Return tickets are one day validity on outward portion and the standard calendar month to return.

And they've been used in these parts for a number of years now. It does make sense, to be fair, on shorter flows where you may well want to come back at any time in a month but are unlikely to be legitimately travelling for longer than one day to your destination. For example you may well go Newcastle for a weekend from Redcar but are very unlikely to stop off at Durham (for instance) for more than a day on the way so the need for a flexible outward portion is minimal. But if you were going to say Plymouth from Redcar you're far more likely to stop off en route for somewhere for slightly longer (i.e. "Oh I'll drop in and see Aunty Glenda in Derby on my way for a day or two).

 

[krus_aragon]

Anytime Short Return tickets are one day validity on outward portion and the standard calendar month to return.

Got it: it's the outbound validity that is shortened, so a nefarious person couldn't keep using the outbound over and over (but could keep using the return if unchecked).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Got it: it's the outbound validity that is shortened, so a nefarious person couldn't keep using the outbound over and over (but could keep using the return if unchecked).

I've not heard of the off peak one before, surely the usual way of doing that is just putting a BoJ restriction on the outward.

Edit: wouldn't be a bad idea though. Off Peak Short Return = no BoJ on outward, Off Peak Return = BoJ on outward. Understandable at least.

 

[paul1609]

Ticket barriers are generally useless in preventing abuse, for example if you buy a Manchester to Garforth open return there are no barriers at Garforth to capture the ticket but the Leeds barriers will let you through time and time again during the 30 days due to the connecting journey.

Ideally they should be programmed to allow one exit and entry to allow for a single break of journey on the return but I'm not sure how simple this would actually be to implement, even then if the ticket was unmarked the manual staff would probably just let someone straight through!

I was sceptical about barriers until I was shown the ticket office receipts for a week before and a week after they were installed at Chichester by a Southern Manager at a Arun valley rail users meeting. They might not stop all fraud but they must be no brainers at the majority of stations

 

[lyndhurst25]

And they've been used in these parts for a number of years now. It does make sense, to be fair, on shorter flows where you may well want to come back at any time in a month but are unlikely to be legitimately travelling for longer than one day to your destination. For example you may well go Newcastle for a weekend from Redcar but are very unlikely to stop off at Durham (for instance) for more than a day on the way so the need for a flexible outward portion is minimal. But if you were going to say Plymouth from Redcar you're far more likely to stop off en route for somewhere for slightly longer (i.e. "Oh I'll drop in and see Aunty Glenda in Derby on my way for a day or two).

I disagree. You could equally have an Aunty Glenda in Durham and want to stop off overnight to see her on our journey between Newcastle and Redcar. Why should the railway dictate that you can only do this on your return journey? BoJ on the return portion only has always seemed like a bizarre and petty restriction to me.

 

[Wallsendmag]

As I was involved in the introduction of these I may know more about the reason for their appearance. They were initially brought into existence for Doncaster to York and Doncaster to Leeds where Anytime returns didn't previously exist. Back in BR days any journey under about 50 miles didn't have an overnight return, these tickets added the overnight return while to a small extent mitigating the fraud risk.

 

[John @ home]

Back in BR days any journey under about 50 miles didn't have an overnight return, these tickets added the overnight return while to a small extent mitigating the fraud risk.

If the introduction of the Anytime Short Return had added a new ticket giving the opportunity to return at a later date, while retaining all existing tickets, that would have been welcome.

But the inconsistent way in which the Anytime Short Return has been implemented has done no favours to the industry. We now have a shortest Anytime Return for a journey of less than 2 miles (http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BHI&dest=HIA&rte=1000&tkt=SOR) and a longest Anytime Short Return for a journey of 183 miles (http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MIK&dest=J419&rte=10&tkt=SHR).

 

[lyndhurst25]

As I was involved in the introduction of these I may know more about the reason for their appearance. They were initially brought into existence for Doncaster to York and Doncaster to Leeds where Anytime returns didn't previously exist. Back in BR days any journey under about 50 miles didn't have an overnight return, these tickets added the overnight return while to a small extent mitigating the fraud risk.

That was indeed the original intention and a good one too. However, and as usual, the rail industry have abused the existence of this new ticket type as above. In Northern land, what were SVRs without time restrictions were converted to SORs and at a later date on to SHRs. So we have gone from 2 to 5 to 1 days of outward validity for period returns on certain routes such as Liverpool to Morecambe and Leeds to Carlisle via Appleby. Is the ability to make an overnight break of journey not an unreasonable thing to expect on such journeys?

 

[snail]

So we have gone from 2 to 5 to 1 days of outward validity for period returns on certain routes such as Liverpool to Morecambe and Leeds to Carlisle via Appleby. Is the ability to make an overnight break of journey not an unreasonable thing to expect on such journeys?

Why would you break a journey between Liverpool and Morecambe? Have I underestimated the delights of St. Helens, Wigan or Preston perhaps?

 

[lyndhurst25]

Why would you break a journey between Liverpool and Morecambe? Have I underestimated the delights of St. Helens, Wigan or Preston perhaps?

You've heard of a "Wigan all-nighter", haven't you?

 

[randyrippley]

Why would you break a journey between Liverpool and Morecambe? Have I underestimated the delights of St. Helens, Wigan or Preston perhaps?

If you had ever been to Morecambe you'd look for somewhere better to spend the night

 

[route101]

Could be an idea for Edinburgh to Glasgow return which is valid for a return after day it is valid