Anytime Day Return is not an Open Return!

[AJL1984]

Good Afternoon All. I am looking for some advice, I have received a "payment notice" from Chiltern Railways for £70.90 (attached) due to a incident that took place on the 18th Sept. I had a training course spanning 2 days on the 17th-18th September in Aylesbury. On the morning of the 17th Sept just before the train I was planning on getting, I bought what I believed to be an OPEN RETURN from Marylebone to Aylesbury (via Trainline), subsequently I have understood this was actually an ANYTIME DAY RETURN. I traveled on the 17th without incident.
On the Afternoon of the 18th Sept I used the ticket I bought on the 17th on the Electronic Gates at Aylesbury, which granted me access. I traveled to Marylebone and at the gates at Marylebone my ticket didnt work. I spoke to CR staff and they informed me that the ticket was invalid and that i needed to speak to the excess fares booth. I proceeded to the booth and explained the situation, I showed them my booking confirmation from train-line which showed up as an OPEN RETURN(screen shot attached)at this point I looked at the actual ticket and realised it was an anytime day return. After not believing that I had entered at Aylesbury with my ticket they checked and confirmed that I actually had. The Staff member said that he would have to send my case for investigation, I asked if this meant I was going to get a fine in the post which he assured me I wouldn't. As it was a training course for work I was expensing the tickets and so i had no reason to try and "Fare Dodge" At anypoint had I been made aware I didnt have the correct ticket I would have purchased the correct one. So to the advice, do I have any legal rights to appeal? For what is effectively a difference in fare of £9.90 is the £70.90 payment just on behalf of CR? I have emailed CR and got an automated response with a 60 day response time, this will take me past the 14 days I have been given to pay prior to legal proceedings, am I better to pay and then try and get a refund? Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

 

[methecooldude]

When you were booking, did you skip pass a screen like this which clearly states "return same day"

 

[Jan Mayen]

Should the name of the prosecutor be blocked as well? And what on earth do all those letters mean after their name? Are they relevant to the case?

 

[WesternLancer]

Good Afternoon All. I am looking for some advice, I have received a "payment notice" from Chiltern Railways for £70.90 (attached) due to a incident that took place on the 18th Sept. I had a training course spanning 2 days on the 17th-18th September in Aylesbury. On the morning of the 17th Sept just before the train I was planning on getting, I bought what I believed to be an OPEN RETURN from Marylebone to Aylesbury (via Trainline), subsequently I have understood this was actually an ANYTIME DAY RETURN. I traveled on the 17th without incident.
On the Afternoon of the 18th Sept I used the ticket I bought on the 17th on the Electronic Gates at Aylesbury, which granted me access. I traveled to Marylebone and at the gates at Marylebone my ticket didnt work. I spoke to CR staff and they informed me that the ticket was invalid and that i needed to speak to the excess fares booth. I proceeded to the booth and explained the situation, I showed them my booking confirmation from train-line which showed up as an OPEN RETURN(screen shot attached)at this point I looked at the actual ticket and realised it was an anytime day return. After not believing that I had entered at Aylesbury with my ticket they checked and confirmed that I actually had. The Staff member said that he would have to send my case for investigation, I asked if this meant I was going to get a fine in the post which he assured me I wouldn't. As it was a training course for work I was expensing the tickets and so i had no reason to try and "Fare Dodge" At anypoint had I been made aware I didnt have the correct ticket I would have purchased the correct one. So to the advice, do I have any legal rights to appeal? For what is effectively a difference in fare of £9.90 is the £70.90 payment just on behalf of CR? I have emailed CR and got an automated response with a 60 day response time, this will take me past the 14 days I have been given to pay prior to legal proceedings, am I better to pay and then try and get a refund? Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Hi and welcome - frankly this is harsh if you had not actually boarded the train at the point the ticket not being valid was pointed out to you**.

In such circumstances i would have thought you being charged an excess fare (the difference between the ticket you had and what you actually needed, if that was permitted by the Railway's rules), or sent back to the ticket office to buy a new ticket that was valid for your return that day. those would have been the better, or 'fairer' course of action.

But this may fall foul of the relevant bit of the station being a 'compulsory ticket area'. Experts here will know.

What you have been sent looks like a request for payment, which if you don't pay, they will take you to court. Such process has no right of Appeal (unlike say a Penalty Fare which is what you typically see posters at stations about) apart from refusing to pay, and arguing about it in front of the magistrate when it goes to court. The risk of doing that, and being found guilty, never mind the time it takes, is probably higher than you might wish to take...

Who bought the ticket for you? If it was your workplace and they knew the course was 2 days, and someone at work booked the wrong ticket then in my view your employer should be paying this sum for you, and the relevant member of staff given a briefing on correctly booking staff travel tickets . But if you booked it for yourself (and would claim back the travel expense later) then it would be your mistake I suppose.

** EDIT - apols - I now see this did not come to light until you got off the train in London, in which case you travelled without a valid ticket, which means Chiltern are able to prosecute you in the magistrates court for this as it is a criminal offence. I suspect you best option is to pay the sum demanded, but see what others say before you pay! Clearly it's not helpful that when you went to the platform the ticket barrier did not reject your ticket which would have / might have, served as a warning that there was something wrong with it's validity that you would then have clarified before taking the journey, and going to buy a new single back to London ticket before boarding.

 

[mattdickinson]

Should the name of the prosecutor be blocked as well? And what on earth do all those letters mean after their name? Are they relevant to the case?

They are all courses he's been on:

DCFM Diploma in Computerised Financial Management
CFRM Certificate in Financial Risk Management
ACFS Association of Certified Financial Crime Specialists
APCIP Advanced Professional Certificate in Investigative Practice
CCIP Certified Cyber Intelligence Professional
CHIA ?

 

[30907]

An Anytime Day Return ticket is an open return as long as the ticket is valid, which is one day only (this is quite common in suburban areas). As post #2 shows, the ticket is clearly labelled.

You needed to have bought a one-way ticket in each direction, costing £20.90 x2.

Chiltern are asking you to pay this one-way fare plus £50 for admin - I don't think you have any alternative, as you had travelled without a valid ticket, and that is an offence.

 

[WesternLancer]

Chiltern are asking you to pay this one-way fare plus £50 for admin - I don't think you have any alternative, as you had travelled without a valid ticket, and that is an offence.

And that sum is in line with the cost of Penalty Fare (£50 if paid promptly + the cost of a ticket) so it might be said that this is the least worst sanction Chiltern could have offered - apart from 'letting you off' which is probably fairly unlikely for Chiltern as they have a reputation on here as a Train Company that takes a particularly tough line on non valid tickets.

 

[AJL1984]

When you were booking, did you skip pass a screen like this which clearly states "return same day"

Potentially, I booked in a hurry, and had searched for an Open Return

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

Should the name of the prosecutor be blocked as well? And what on earth do all those letters mean after their name? Are they relevant to the case?

yes apologies i will retract the information

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

Hi and welcome - frankly this is harsh if you had not actually boarded the train at the point the ticket not being valid was pointed out to you**.

In such circumstances i would have thought you being charged an excess fare (the difference between the ticket you had and what you actually needed, if that was permitted by the Railway's rules), or sent back to the ticket office to buy a new ticket that was valid for your return that day. those would have been the better, or 'fairer' course of action.

But this may fall foul of the relevant bit of the station being a 'compulsory ticket area'. Experts here will know.

What you have been sent looks like a request for payment, which if you don't pay, they will take you to court. Such process has no right of Appeal (unlike say a Penalty Fare which is what you typically see posters at stations about) apart from refusing to pay, and arguing about it in front of the magistrate when it goes to court. The risk of doing that, and being found guilty, never mind the time it takes, is probably higher than you might wish to take...

Who bought the ticket for you? If it was your workplace and they knew the course was 2 days, and someone at work booked the wrong ticket then in my view your employer should be paying this sum for you, and the relevant member of staff given a briefing on correctly booking staff travel tickets . But if you booked it for yourself (and would claim back the travel expense later) then it would be your mistake I suppose.

** EDIT - apols - I now see this did not come to light until you got off the train in London, in which case you travelled without a valid ticket, which means Chiltern are able to prosecute you in the magistrates court for this as it is a criminal offence. I suspect you best option is to pay the sum demanded, but see what others say before you pay! Clearly it's not helpful that when you went to the platform the ticket barrier did not reject your ticket which would have / might have, served as a warning that there was something wrong with it's validity that you would then have clarified before taking the journey.

My mistake unfortunately, i think that is my biggest issue that the barriers worked in Aylesbury. Every day is a school day, thanks for your response!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

They are all courses he's been on:

DCFM Diploma in Computerised Financial Management
CFRM Certificate in Financial Risk Management
ACFS Association of Certified Financial Crime Specialists
APCIP Advanced Professional Certificate in Investigative Practice
CCIP Certified Cyber Intelligence Professional
CHIA ?

I did wonder, when i saw these on the letter, thanks for the response.

 

[AJL1984]

An Anytime Day Return ticket is an open return as long as the ticket is valid, which is one day only (this is quite common in suburban areas). As post #2 shows, the ticket is clearly labelled.

You needed to have bought a one-way ticket in each direction, costing £20.90 x2.

Chiltern are asking you to pay this one-way fare plus £50 for admin - I don't think you have any alternative, as you had travelled without a valid ticket, and that is an offence.

Thanks, appreciate the response

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

And that sum is in line with the cost of Penalty Fare (£50 if paid promptly + the cost of a ticket) so it might be said that this is the least worst sanction Chiltern could have offered - apart from 'letting you off' which is probably fairly unlikely for Chiltern as they have a reputation on here as a Train Company that takes a particularly tough line on non valid tickets.

Appreciate the response, thought as much.

 

[Gloster]

Should the name of the prosecutor be blocked as well? And what on earth do all those letters mean after their name? Are they relevant to the case?

They are all courses he's been on:

DCFM Diploma in Computerised Financial Management
CFRM Certificate in Financial Risk Management
ACFS Association of Certified Financial Crime Specialists
APCIP Advanced Professional Certificate in Investigative Practice
CCIP Certified Cyber Intelligence Professional
CHIA ?

There are a number of meanings for the abbreviation CHIA, but most seem irrelevant or bizarre: he is presumably not claiming to be Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport. The only (very) tenuously connected one seems to be Certification in Hotel Industry Analytics.

Most of these seem to be only distantly connected to the matter (if that) and unnecessary. Perhaps they have only been put on to impress, which is something I have always though should start alarms bells ringing in an employer.

 

[Starmill]

The expression "open return" can be misleading, and it's ambiguous what is actually meant by it in some contexts. For this reason it's really best avoided.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Many thanks for the replies regarding the abbreviations.

Jan Mayen BIIK
(Blessed If I Know, now studying for the FIIK )

 

[RPI]

The Trainline "open return" strikes again, I wish they would change this as it causes untold numbers of interactions. I'm generally very sympathetic to people who get mistaken by this and try my best to resolve by the cheapest means possible!

I would encourage the op to complain to the Trainline about how misleading their interpretation of "open return" is.

However, that is a side issue to that of the letter from Chiltern.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The only (very) tenuously connected one seems to be Certification in Hotel Industry Analytics.

It's the professional award in Complaints Handling and Investigations.

Most of these seem to be only distantly connected to the matter (if that) and unnecessary. Perhaps they have only been put on to impress, which is something I have always though should start alarms bells ringing in an employer.

I happen to hold a couple of those qualifications too and, it's fair to say, I wouldn't dream of putting them on a professional letter that I send out in my name.

Anyway, the advice to the OP has to be to put this one down to experience. Unpaid fare+ £50 is the same as if they'd received a Penalty Fare, so it's as fair as you're going to get in the circumstances.

 

[Haywain]

They are all courses he's been on:

Qualifications obtained, not just courses attended.

 

[40875704]

Many thanks for the replies regarding the abbreviations.

Jan Mayen BIIK
(Blessed If I Know, now studying for the FIIK )

And the associated FIIC?

 

[furlong]

Was this an e-ticket they scanned? (Or a ticket with a magnetic stripe)

1. In traditional railway parlance, open return means valid for a month so there may be an argument under the consumer regulations that the ticket was valid - information shown after the purchase can also be relied upon. ("Open" means the day of travel is left open and doesn't have to be specified at time of purchase.)

2. If you are really claiming the gate opened in response to the invalid ticket that could be interpreted as another mistake by the railway that contributed to the occurrence of the offence

It's another one where you might want to involve your MP. (The ORR should take an interest in cases like these, but in practice it never seems to do so. Whether the fact it's being asked to run an inquiry into railway prosecutions will wake it up to its own contributory failures, who knows!)

Pragmatically you might indeed end up paying to stop the threats then kicking up a fuss to try to get your money back with some extra compensation on top.

 

[Titfield]

Pragmatically you might indeed end up paying to stop the threats then kicking up a fuss to try to get your money back with some extra compensation on top.

Pragmatism first, principles second. (This approach minimises financial and reputational risk to the individual).

 

[Hadders]

This is an unfortunate incident but I agree with other forum members about paying up to prvent the matter from escalating.

I would railse a formal complaint to Trainline. The term 'Open Return' is out dated, causes confusion and really ought to be removed from railway and ticket selling vocabulary.

 

[soil]

I wouldn't/don't use thetrainline, so I'm not familiar with their tickets. It is clear however that the trainline does explain during purchase that it's a day return ticket.

However, it looks like the OP subsequently received a notification saying he had an "open return"?

This is understood to mean one month.

I would pay Chiltern first, then pursue Thetrainline for compensation.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have quite a bit of sympathy with the OP. The railway used to define an Open Return as open for a month, and now it no longer does, retailers should really stop using this phrase.

 

[Haywain]

This is understood to mean one month.

It meant that at a point in the past but doesn't mean a thing now. And, over the years, I've sold many day return tickets to people who have initially asked for an 'open return'. To most it just means without a specified return journey time.

 

[Starmill]

It meant that at a point in the past but doesn't mean a thing now. And, over the years, I've sold many day return tickets to people who have initially asked for an 'open return'. To most it just means without a specified return journey time.

Some people also interpret it to mean simply a ticket where there is no time restriction, either on both outward and return or just on the return. On lines where tickets are operator-restricted, sometimes they interpret it to mean the ticket that has no operator restriction. Hence it's really not that useful.