Anytime 1st cheaper than Anytime (Man-Mia)

[WhichRailWay]

Travelling from Manchester Piccadilly today to Manchester Airport, wanting to return on Monday - both on-peak times.

Anytime return is £9.40 (or two singles at £4.70)
Anytime 1st return is £9.10

No value in travelling 1st for a 20 minute journey on a high frequency route, but thought it was an interesting quirk that it was slightly cheaper unless I've missed something?

 

[Sammy h]

Travelling from Manchester Piccadilly today to Manchester Airport, wanting to return on Monday - both on-peak times.

Anytime return is £9.40 (or two singles at £4.70)
Anytime 1st return is £9.10

No value in travelling 1st for a 20 minute journey on a high frequency route, but thought it was an interesting quirk that it was slightly cheaper unless I've missed something?

£9.10 fare is a TPE only fare.

 

[Goatboy]

£9.10 fare is a TPE only fare.

Which would be the preferred operator on tha route anyway?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Which would be the preferred operator on tha route anyway?

and the only one with first class?

 

[IanXC]

and the only one with first class?

The Any Permitted First Anytime is £13.60 and priced by GMPTE. I wonder if the ORCATS calculation on that fare assumes a significant portion of ticket holders will use a standard class only service, and whether the TPE only fare is a reaction to that?

 

[soil]

First is genuinely (same route) cheaper in a number of cases, usually when First is not actually available, but not always.

FDS vs SDS:

WEST RUNTON      BERNEY ARMS      580         910         ANY PERMITTED
BOUNDARY ZONE 6  HOW WOOD         450         550         ANY PERMITTED
HOW WOOD         BOUNDARY ZONE 6  450         550         ANY PERMITTED
SANDWELL & DUDLY THE LAKES        480         530         ANY PERMITTED
TILE HILL.       RUGELEY TRNT VAL 1350        1480        VIA COVENTRY
Q385             Q228             1720        1870        ANY PERMITTED
SANDWELL & DUDLY LAPWORTH         530         570         ANY PERMITTED
SANDWELL & DUDLY DANZEY           530         570         ANY PERMITTED
SANDWELL & DUDLY WOOD END         530         570         ANY PERMITTED
LONGBRIDGE.      PERSHORE.        920         980         ANY PERMITTED
ELSTREE & BHWOOD NEW BARNET       920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD NEW SOUTHGATE    920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD OAKLEIGH PARK    920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD POTTERS BAR      920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD WELHAM GREEN     920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD BROOKMANS PK     920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
ELSTREE & BHWOOD HADLEY WOOD      920         980         HATFLD/ALBNS BUS
NORTHFIELD.      PERSHORE.        930         990         ANY PERMITTED
BARNT GREEN      PERSHORE.        910         960         ANY PERMITTED
ATHERSTONE WARKS CANLEY.          620         650         VIA COVENTRY
ZONE U1256 LONDN WATFORD JUNCTION 1280        1340        ANY PERMITTED
WATFORD JUNCTION ZONE U1256 LONDN 1280        1340        ANY PERMITTED
POLESWORTH       CANLEY.          730         760         VIA COVENTRY
ZONE U1245 LONDN WATFORD JUNCTION 1280        1330        ANY PERMITTED
WATFORD JUNCTION ZONE U1245 LONDN 1280        1330        ANY PERMITTED
BERKSWELL.       ATHERSTONE WARKS 820         850         VIA COVENTRY
BERKSWELL.       POLESWORTH       820         850         VIA COVENTRY
HAMPTON IN ARDEN NUNEATON.        620         640         VIA COVENTRY
KINGS NORTON.    PERSHORE.        980         1010        ANY PERMITTED
HAGLEY           PERSHORE.        980         1010        ANY PERMITTED
STOURBRIDGE TOWN PERSHORE.        980         1010        ANY PERMITTED
BOURNVILLE.      PERSHORE.        1010        1040        ANY PERMITTED
TILE HILL.       POLESWORTH       780         800         VIA COVENTRY
BOUNDARY ZONE 6  GARSTON (HERTS)  430         440         ANY PERMITTED
GARSTON (HERTS)  BOUNDARY ZONE 6  430         440         ANY PERMITTED
COVENTRY.        HINCKLEY (LEICS) 1330        1360        ANY PERMITTED
BOUNDARY ZONE 6  PARK STREET      550         560         ANY PERMITTED
PARK STREET      BOUNDARY ZONE 6  550         560         ANY PERMITTED
CRADLEY HEATH.   PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
OLD HILL.        PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
THE HAWTHORNS.   PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
ROWLEY REGIS.    PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
LANGLEY GREEN.   PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
BIRMINGHAM STNS  PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
EWELLERY QUARTR  PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
SMETHWICK GAL BG PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
SMETHWICK RLF ST PERSHORE.        1120        1140        ANY PERMITTED
KINGS LANGLEY    UPPER HOLLOWAY   1210        1230        ANY PERMITTED
UNIVERSITY BIRM  EVESHAM          1340        1360        ANY PERMITTED
THE HAWTHORNS.   EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
FIVE WAYS.       EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
CRADLEY HEATH.   EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
LANGLEY GREEN.   EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
OLD HILL.        EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
SMETHWICK RLF ST EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
SMETHWICK GAL BG EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
EWELLERY QUARTR  EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
ROWLEY REGIS.    EVESHAM          1360        1380        ANY PERMITTED
MILTON KEYNES C. KEMPSTON HARDWK  740         750         ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  MILTON KEYNES C. 740         750         ANY PERMITTED
SANDWELL & DUDLY WOOTTON WAWEN    750         760         ANY PERMITTED
KIDDERMINSTER    PERSHORE.        860         870         ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERHAMPTON.   HENLEY IN ARDEN  950         960         ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK KEMPSTON HARDWK  1150        1160        ANY PERMITTED
Q039             Q113             1200        1210        NOT VIA LONDON
Q113             Q039             1200        1210        NOT VIA LONDON
KINGS NORTON.    EVESHAM          1280        1290        ANY PERMITTED
HAGLEY           EVESHAM          1280        1290        ANY PERMITTED
STOURBRIDGE TOWN EVESHAM          1280        1290        ANY PERMITTED
STOURBRIDGE JN   EVESHAM          1280        1290        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   KEMPSTON HARDWK  1320        1330        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  KEMPSTON HARDWK  1370        1380        ANY PERMITTED
APSLEY           UPPER HOLLOWAY   1370        1380        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  KEMPSTON HARDWK  1370        1380        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK KEMPSTON HARDWK  1490        1500        ANY PERMITTED
BRIDGNORTH SVR   PERSHORE.        2060        2070        ANY PERMITTED
PERSHORE.        BRIDGNORTH SVR   2060        2070        ANY PERMITTED

FDR vs. SDR

BEDFORD BUS MK   WOLVERTON        1240        1490        ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERTON        BEDFORD BUS MK   1240        1490        ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERTON        BICESTER BUS MK  1290        1540        ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERTON        ST NEOTS BUS MK  1290        1540        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  WOLVERTON        1290        1540        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  WOLVERTON        1290        1540        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK WOLVERTON        1410        1640        ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERTON        CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1410        1640        ANY PERMITTED
BLETCHLEY        BEDFORD BUS MK   1400        1560        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   BLETCHLEY        1400        1560        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  BLETCHLEY        1450        1610        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  BLETCHLEY        1450        1610        ANY PERMITTED
BLETCHLEY        BICESTER BUS MK  1450        1610        ANY PERMITTED
BLETCHLEY        ST NEOTS BUS MK  1450        1610        ANY PERMITTED
BOW BRICKHILL    BEDFORD BUS MK   1500        1660        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   BOW BRICKHILL    1500        1660        ANY PERMITTED
BOW BRICKHILL    BICESTER BUS MK  1550        1710        ANY PERMITTED
BOW BRICKHILL    ST NEOTS BUS MK  1550        1710        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  BOW BRICKHILL    1550        1710        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  BOW BRICKHILL    1550        1710        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK WOLVERTON        1070        1180        ANY PERMITTED
WOLVERTON        BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 1070        1180        ANY PERMITTED
FENNY STRATFORD  BEDFORD BUS MK   1500        1640        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   FENNY STRATFORD  1500        1640        ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  BEDFORD BUS MK   2060        2250        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   KEMPSTON HARDWK  2060        2250        ANY PERMITTED
FENNY STRATFORD  ST NEOTS BUS MK  1550        1690        ANY PERMITTED
FENNY STRATFORD  BICESTER BUS MK  1550        1690        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  FENNY STRATFORD  1550        1690        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  FENNY STRATFORD  1550        1690        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  KEMPSTON HARDWK  2110        2300        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  KEMPSTON HARDWK  2110        2300        ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  BICESTER BUS MK  2110        2300        ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  ST NEOTS BUS MK  2110        2300        ANY PERMITTED
BLETCHLEY        CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1570        1710        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK BLETCHLEY        1570        1710        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE HERSHAM          2140        2330        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE WEST BYFLEET     2590        2810        ANY PERMITTED
BOW BRICKHILL    CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1670        1810        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK BOW BRICKHILL    1670        1810        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   STEWARTBY        1980        2140        ANY PERMITTED
STEWARTBY        BEDFORD BUS MK   1980        2140        ANY PERMITTED
STEWARTBY        BICESTER BUS MK  2030        2190        ANY PERMITTED
STEWARTBY        ST NEOTS BUS MK  2030        2190        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  STEWARTBY        2030        2190        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  STEWARTBY        2030        2190        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK KEMPSTON HARDWK  2230        2400        ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 2230        2400        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE HINCHLEY WOOD    2130        2290        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE ESHER            2130        2290        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   BEDFORD STATIONS 2200        2360        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD STATIONS BEDFORD BUS MK   2200        2360        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE WALTON ON THAMES 2220        2380        ANY PERMITTED
FENNY STRATFORD  CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1670        1790        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK FENNY STRATFORD  1670        1790        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   ASPLEY GUISE     1680        1800        ANY PERMITTED
ASPLEY GUISE     BEDFORD BUS MK   1680        1800        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD STATIONS BICESTER BUS MK  2250        2410        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD STATIONS ST NEOTS BUS MK  2250        2410        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  BEDFORD STATIONS 2250        2410        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  BEDFORD STATIONS 2250        2410        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  ASPLEY GUISE     1730        1850        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  ASPLEY GUISE     1730        1850        ANY PERMITTED
ASPLEY GUISE     BICESTER BUS MK  1730        1850        ANY PERMITTED
ASPLEY GUISE     ST NEOTS BUS MK  1730        1850        ANY PERMITTED
RIDGMONT         BEDFORD BUS MK   1760        1880        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   RIDGMONT         1760        1880        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE WORPLESDON       2970        3170        ANY PERMITTED
RIDGMONT         BICESTER BUS MK  1810        1930        ANY PERMITTED
RIDGMONT         ST NEOTS BUS MK  1810        1930        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  RIDGMONT         1810        1930        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  RIDGMONT         1810        1930        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   LIDLINGTON       1840        1960        ANY PERMITTED
LIDLINGTON       BEDFORD BUS MK   1840        1960        ANY PERMITTED
STEWARTBY        CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 2150        2290        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK STEWARTBY        2150        2290        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  LIDLINGTON       1890        2010        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  LIDLINGTON       1890        2010        ANY PERMITTED
LIDLINGTON       BICESTER BUS MK  1890        2010        ANY PERMITTED
LIDLINGTON       ST NEOTS BUS MK  1890        2010        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD STATIONS CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 2370        2510        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK BEDFORD STATIONS 2370        2510        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK ASPLEY GUISE     1850        1950        ANY PERMITTED
ASPLEY GUISE     CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1850        1950        ANY PERMITTED
RIDGMONT         CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1930        2030        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK RIDGMONT         1930        2030        ANY PERMITTED
STRATFORD INT SE WOKING           2740        2880        ANY PERMITTED
LIDLINGTON       CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 2010        2110        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK LIDLINGTON       2010        2110        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   WOBURN SANDS     1680        1750        ANY PERMITTED
WOBURN SANDS     BEDFORD BUS MK   1680        1750        ANY PERMITTED
MILLBROOK BEDS   BEDFORD BUS MK   1940        2020        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD BUS MK   MILLBROOK BEDS   1940        2020        ANY PERMITTED
WOBURN SANDS     BICESTER BUS MK  1730        1800        ANY PERMITTED
WOBURN SANDS     ST NEOTS BUS MK  1730        1800        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  WOBURN SANDS     1730        1800        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  WOBURN SANDS     1730        1800        ANY PERMITTED
ST NEOTS BUS MK  MILLBROOK BEDS   1990        2070        ANY PERMITTED
BICESTER BUS MK  MILLBROOK BEDS   1990        2070        ANY PERMITTED
MILLBROOK BEDS   BICESTER BUS MK  1990        2070        ANY PERMITTED
MILLBROOK BEDS   ST NEOTS BUS MK  1990        2070        ANY PERMITTED
MILLBROOK BEDS   CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 2110        2170        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK MILLBROOK BEDS   2110        2170        ANY PERMITTED
CAMBRIDGE BUS MK WOBURN SANDS     1850        1900        ANY PERMITTED
WOBURN SANDS     CAMBRIDGE BUS MK 1850        1900        ANY PERMITTED
KEMPSTON HARDWK  BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 1890        1940        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK KEMPSTON HARDWK  1890        1940        ANY PERMITTED
BERKSWELL.       POLESWORTH       1640        1680        VIA COVENTRY
BOUNDARY ZONE 6  GARSTON (HERTS)  860         880         ANY PERMITTED
GARSTON (HERTS)  BOUNDARY ZONE 6  860         880         ANY PERMITTED
BLETCHLEY        BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 1230        1250        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK BLETCHLEY        1230        1250        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK BOW BRICKHILL    1330        1350        ANY PERMITTED
BOW BRICKHILL    BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 1330        1350        ANY PERMITTED
STEWARTBY        BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 1810        1830        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK STEWARTBY        1810        1830        ANY PERMITTED
BUCKNGHAM BUS MK BEDFORD STATIONS 2030        2050        ANY PERMITTED
BEDFORD STATIONS BUCKNGHAM BUS MK 2030        2050        ANY PERMITTED
TILE HILL.       POLESWORTH       1560        1570        VIA COVENTRY

In the case of FORs and SORs, there are only basically two:

http://brfares.com/#fares?orig=BRL&dest=PKS&rlc= &expert=on (the Any Permitted)

and some error priced cross-London FORs from Gatwick

http://brfares.com/#fares?orig=GTW&dest=AML&rlc=

Suffice to say it happens.....

 

[tractakid]

It's these Bus MK fares again! Seem to be the X5 towards Bedford/St Neots.

 

[gordonthemoron]

It's these Bus MK fares again! Seem to be the X5 towards Bedford/St Neots.

it is indeed the X5 between Oxford-Bicester-Buckingham-MK-Bedford-St Neots-Cambridge

 

[cuccir]

Newcastle-Northallerton
First Class Anytime Return, East Coast only £24
Anytime Return £27.30

York-Northallerton
First Class Anytime Return GC only £17.50
Off Peak Return £20.30
Anytime Return £25.50

There must be a few others where TOC restricted First Class tickets are cheaper than equivalent all-TOC walk on Standard fares

 

[kieron]

Which would be the preferred operator on tha route anyway?

Not especially. TPE run 4 fast trains an hour. Northern run 2 fast and 2 slow. I suspect most people would be happy to get the next train going in the right direction. The Any Permitted tickets are also valid on Metrolink in the city centre, for if that's a bit more convenient.

It would be cheaper to buy a SDS and a CDS in any case, unless you expect to leave before 9.30am on a weekday in both directions.

 

[Goatboy]

Not especially. TPE run 4 fast trains an hour. Northern run 2 fast and 2 slow.

Seems to suggest I was right? So you can travel First Class every 15 minutes on a fast train for less money than Standard Class provided you are happy to lose the ability to travel on whatever badly maintained stock Northern put out that day.

Bargain.

 

[soil]

Seems to suggest I was right? So you can travel First Class every 15 minutes on a fast train for less money than Standard Class provided you are happy to lose the ability to travel on whatever badly maintained stock Northern put out that day.

Bargain.

Not quite.

There is e.g. a 33 minute gap between the 20:47 and 21:20 TPE services MIA-MAN

Northern rail trains depart at 21:03 and 21:09, so that would actually be quite annoying not being able to board them.

 

[pjnathanail]

Not quite.

There is e.g. a 33 minute gap between the 20:47 and 21:20 TPE services MIA-MAN

Northern rail trains depart at 21:03 and 21:09, so that would actually be quite annoying not being able to board them.

And you wouldn't even be able to excess to the STD any permitted. I suppose it would be something to check before buying your ticket, and I would hope the ticket office clerk would advise as appropriate.

 

[kieron]

Seems to suggest I was right? So you can travel First Class every 15 minutes on a fast train for less money than Standard Class provided you are happy to lose the ability to travel on whatever badly maintained stock Northern put out that day.

As I mentioned in my previous post, it wouldn't generally cost less than standard class (because "standard class" means more than just a SOR), you would also lose the ability to travel on whatever vehicles Metrolink uses, and, while the slow trains manage a roughly half hourly service, the timetable for the fast ones is all over the place.

Apart from that, you're spot on.

 

[185]

£9.10 fare is a TPE only fare.

And it's a bit crooked that TPE are coining it in, often from (unsuspecting) tourists using TVMs or online - how are they to know to use MCZ / Central Zone as their destination.

This was raised 5 years ago, and TPE have chosen to not change it. Over 5 years, that's a lot of money.

Manchester Piccadilly should not be a destination for any Greater Manchester fares, and TfGM should have intervened here long ago.

 

[simonm]

Off Peak Day Singles and Anytime Day Singles from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh are dearer than a (XC only) 1st Anytime ticket. Ok, only a few trains per day but a good wheeze nonetheless.

 

[Starmill]

And it's a bit crooked that TPE are coining it in, often from (unsuspecting) tourists using TVMs or online - how are they to know to use MCZ / Central Zone as their destination.

This was raised 5 years ago, and TPE have chosen to not change it. Over 5 years, that's a lot of money.

Manchester Piccadilly should not be a destination for any Greater Manchester fares, and TfGM should have intervened here long ago.

Oh, surely if the origin is Manchester Oxford Road its OK?

Just Kidding!

Seriously though the destination is Manchester STNS - which is crafty and no doubt. This page: http://brfares.com/#fares?orig=MIA&dest=0438&rlc= makes it look like its the only ticket avaialble! Thankfully, in most booking engines, this phenomenon only seems to occur if the user specifies MANCHESTER STNS and the destination. I'd guess that most will specify Manchester Piccadilly or Manchester [All Stations] which seem to yield the (correct!) fares to Manchester Central Zone, do I doubt all that many people have been caught out, subject to which booking engine/TVM they've used.