Any remaining "D" trains in Germany?

[AY1975]

Historically most ordinary fast long-distance trains in Germany were classed as "Durchgangszüge" or "D-Züge" (D-Zug in the singular form, also often referred to as a "Schnellzug" (fast train)), then over the last few decades these have gradually been superseded by other train categories such as Intercity/EuroCity and the now defunct InterRegio. At least until the early 2000s a small number of long-distance trains didn't get classed as IC/EC or IR and remained D trains, particularly those that were formed of older rolling stock. Some overnight trains that were formed of older stock also remained D trains until around that time.

Do any D trains still exist today? If you look up a journey on the DB website and click on "weitere Optionen" (further options) and scroll down to "Verkehrsmittelauswahl" (select mode of transport) one of the boxes that you can tick or untick says "Interregio- und Schnellzüge" (despite DB having abolished the IR train category back in about 2006!).

Ironically, I believe that the D train category outlasted the IR at least by a few years, even if there was only a small handful of D trains remaining by then, even though when the then Deutsche Bundesbahn first launched its IR network in about 1988 the IR was expected eventually to replace most if not all remaining D trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've had a play around and I can't find any. It seems that all the night routes that used to be D are now either RJ or EN, while they seem readier to use IC for additional trains now the quality requirements have been slacked off (they used to use D for additional long distance trains with no catering, they'd use IC now, or RB, RE or IRE if a region paid for it). IC is also used internationally now, which it wasn't in the 1990s (e.g. the Amsterdams are now IC in both countries, whereas previously they were "internationale trein" in the Netherlands and D in Germany).

D by the way meant Durchgangs-Schnellzug, which is why they were also known as just Schnellzug. The "Durchgang" refers to the corridor down the side of the compartments - to be a D-Zug they had to be formed of corridor stock with e.g. toilet access.

 

[Austriantrain]

I know it‘s outside the scope of your question, but there are still several D-trains in Austria. They run in longer-distance schedules and timings - outside of the Takt though - and use LHCS (usually RIC-style), but don‘t have first class or catering and therefore are not classified as IC. Mostly, they are peak or weekend trains.

 

[Nunners]

I believe the Snalltaget night train is classed as D as it doesn't meet the requirements for the EN category

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe the Snalltaget night train is classed as D as it doesn't meet the requirements for the EN category

Yep, D301 (presumably either 300 or 302 the other way) - good find!

 

[rvdborgt]

There are also a few D trains between Niebüll and Westerland(Sylt). They're also known as "Sylt Shuttle Plus" and consist of 1 628 train set in DB Fernverkehr livery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are also a few D trains between Niebüll and Westerland(Sylt). They're also known as "Sylt Shuttle Plus" and consist of 1 628 train set in DB Fernverkehr livery.

Ah yes, I recall those. Does anyone know why DB ended up running a regional DMU (little more than a longer bogied Pacer) commercially as a Fernverkehrszug? Some sort of tiff with the region about who paid for it, and DB reckoned they could make it pay commercially?

 

[AY1975]

I've had a play around and I can't find any. It seems that all the night routes that used to be D are now either RJ or EN, while they seem readier to use IC for additional trains now the quality requirements have been slacked off (they used to use D for additional long distance trains with no catering, they'd use IC now, or RB, RE or IRE if a region paid for it). IC is also used internationally now, which it wasn't in the 1990s (e.g. the Amsterdams are now IC in both countries, whereas previously they were "internationale trein" in the Netherlands and D in Germany).

I thought the Amsterdam-Berlins were IR in the 1990s and early 2000s, then like a lot of the more profitable former IR routes they were upgraded to IC status. It's a bit of a wonder that DB has chosen to class them as IC rather than EC, though.

I presume you mean NJ (Nightjet) rather than RJ (Railjet).

Yep, D301 (presumably either 300 or 302 the other way) - good find!

Where does that one go, and what kind of locos and stock is it normally formed of?

 

[Nunners]

I thought the Amsterdam-Berlins were IR in the 1990s and early 2000s, then like a lot of the more profitable former IR routes they were upgraded to IC status. It's a bit of a wonder that DB has chosen to class them as IC rather than EC, though.

I presume you mean NJ (Nightjet) rather than RJ (Railjet).

Where does that one go, and what kind of locos and stock is it normally formed of?

Berlin - Hamburg - Malmö - Stockholm overnight in the summer months. Old German loco (143?) + 2x seated coaches + 4x couchette carriages when I went on it if I'm remembering correctly (@ABB125 ?)

 

[DanielB]

I thought the Amsterdam-Berlins were IR in the 1990s and early 2000s, then like a lot of the more profitable former IR routes they were upgraded to IC status. It's a bit of a wonder that DB has chosen to class them as IC rather than EC, though.

Did some digging in my old Dutch timetable books: in the 1,5 year 2001/2002 timetable Amsterdam - Berlin was classed "Int", with one overnight train classed "D".
In 2003 the D-train was gone, as of 2004 it was classed as IC.
Unfortunately don't have any late 90s "spoorboekjes", but in 1982/1983 it was already as IC in the timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the Amsterdam-Berlins were IR in the 1990s and early 2000s, then like a lot of the more profitable former IR routes they were upgraded to IC status. It's a bit of a wonder that DB has chosen to class them as IC rather than EC, though.

They're not EC spec. That requires a full-service restaurant car and aircon in all vehicles, whereas these have a non-aircon ex-IR Bistrowagen (ARkimbz).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2022 ==

Did some digging in my old Dutch timetable books: in the 1,5 year 2001/2002 timetable Amsterdam - Berlin was classed "Int", with one overnight train classed "D".

Fairly sure "Int" (internationale trein) would be D when it entered Germany, as per e.g. the old Bruxelles-Koeln service.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Ah yes, I recall those. Does anyone know why DB ended up running a regional DMU (little more than a longer bogied Pacer) commercially as a Fernverkehrszug? Some sort of tiff with the region about who paid for it, and DB reckoned they could make it pay commercially?

I think it was to block a path that a competitor wanted to use.

 

[317666]

Ah yes, I recall those. Does anyone know why DB ended up running a regional DMU (little more than a longer bogied Pacer) commercially as a Fernverkehrszug? Some sort of tiff with the region about who paid for it, and DB reckoned they could make it pay commercially?

From my understanding of German-language Wikipedia, it's so they can have the greater share of paths for their regular SyltShuttle car-carrying trains now that they face competition from private operator RDC. By uncoupling the DMU in Niebüll and running it further to Bredstedt, a longer (and more expensive) path is required for the service and this is preferred by the procurement authorities!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it was to block a path that a competitor wanted to use.

It's got to be something like that. The Wiki article on it says it averages 1.5 passengers per train, so it's clearly not profitable in and of itself. That makes Girvan-Stranraer look like the WCML.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2022 ==

From my understanding of German-language Wikipedia, it's so they can have the greater share of paths for their regular SyltShuttle car-carrying trains now that they face competition from private operator RDC. By uncoupling the DMU in Niebüll and running it further to Bredstedt, a longer (and more expensive) path is required for the service and this is preferred by the procurement authorities!

Sneaky.

 

[StephenHunter]

I know it‘s outside the scope of your question, but there are still several D-trains in Austria. They run in longer-distance schedules and timings - outside of the Takt though - and use LHCS (usually RIC-style), but don‘t have first class or catering and therefore are not classified as IC. Mostly, they are peak or weekend trains.

Some of the sleepers too, like the Kyiv one, which is still going despite the war.

 

[ABB125]

Berlin - Hamburg - Malmö - Stockholm overnight in the summer months. Old German loco (143?) + 2x seated coaches + 4x couchette carriages when I went on it if I'm remembering correctly (@ABB125 ?)

Stockholm isn't every night I don't think. It always gets at least as far as Malmö though.
In terms of traction, it was a DB Class 114 in Germany (114006 both ways, we had) and a Hector Rail Class 241 (241010 both ways) in Denmark/Sweden. I believe a Class 241 is the same as a German Class 185.2

As mentioned above, there are some D trains in Austria, but I can't remember any more than that. Much outnumbered by RJ though.

There are also some D trains in the UK. And one in the USA...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They're not EC spec. That requires a full-service restaurant car and aircon in all vehicles, whereas these have a non-aircon ex-IR Bistrowagen (ARkimbz).

In the past that was the case but doesn’t really apply any more, there’s quite a few cases in the current timetable including Germany where that principle is not followed.

EC114, EC115, EC117, EC216, EC217, EC218 and EC219 are all formed of the same DB push pull sets as the Amsterdams including the ARkimbz.

What is interesting about the Amsterdams is for the 2014 timetable year only they ran with DB WRmz134.5 full Restaurants but then those vehicles were suddenly withdrawn.

 

[43096]

From my understanding of German-language Wikipedia, it's so they can have the greater share of paths for their regular SyltShuttle car-carrying trains now that they face competition from private operator RDC. By uncoupling the DMU in Niebüll and running it further to Bredstedt, a longer (and more expensive) path is required for the service and this is preferred by the procurement authorities!

It’s a good way of getting in locos on the car carrying trains, though. You’re guaranteed a seat, too, as they are invariably empty!

 

[DanielB]

What is interesting about the Amsterdams is for the 2014 timetable year only they ran with DB WRmz134.5 full Restaurants but then those vehicles were suddenly withdrawn.

Due to a derailment in 2012 the DB restaurant cars were no longer allowed to be used in push-pull services. Therefore they were temporarily swapped with the bistro cars used for Amsterdam - Berlin, as that service is fully loco hauled without use of driving trailers.
The Eisenbahn Bundesamt ruled somewhere in 2014 that these cars would continue to be not allowed in push-pull services, which was reason for DB to completely withdraw them from service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why was that? Their length? (I seem to recall they are longer, with longer bogie overhangs, than a standard 26.4m RIC coach).

 

[DanielB]

Due to their length (27.5 meter) these cars had a higher risk of derailing when used in trains being pushed by a locomotive. This was the outcome of an accident investigation after two derailments of restaurant cars in Stuttgart.

(Actually these cars have recently been bought by a Dutch charter company and are now stored in Zwolle, so they might be seen in service again in the future)

 

[AY1975]

There are also some D trains in the UK. And one in the USA...

I presume you are referring to the ex-LU D78 Stock Vivarail "D trains", in which case "D train" in UK railway parlance refers to a particular type of unit whereas in Germany (and Austria) it refers to a particular category of train in the timetable.

 

[ABB125]

I presume you are referring to the ex-LU D78 Stock Vivarail "D trains", in which case "D train" in UK railway parlance refers to a particular type of unit whereas in Germany (and Austria) it refers to a particular category of train in the timetable.

I'm aware of that, hence the smiley face!