The Air Force don't seem to think so. The main point of having somebody on-board is that they are more likely to be able to cope if things go wrong. If it is sufficiently reliable and can execute sufficient judgement to cope with emergency situations, then a computer might just be able to handle things. I hope not, though, there's always something they haven't planned for.
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Any ideas what the Government is going to suggest?
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The Air Force don't seem to think so. The main point of having somebody on-board is that they are more likely to be able to cope if things go wrong. If it is sufficiently reliable and can execute sufficient judgement to cope with emergency situations, then a computer might just be able to handle things. I hope not, though, there's always something they haven't planned for.
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WestCoast
Established Member
So thats a 12 month ALR for £3000? Bargain
There are some minor restrictions on 'ICE Sprinters' which are a couple of services running each day that have very few stops, designed for business travellers, but essentially yes it's a 12 month DB ALR for £3,300.
Captain Chaos
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- 31 Jan 2011
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- 840
The trouble with TVM's is that they have a limited range of tickets to sell. They do not sell Groupsave's, nor route-specific tickets such as Gatwick Flyaway's. On many occasions I have been informed that the machine wasn't selling an off-peak ticket when it should have been available, have over-charged people by not displaying the cheapest options first (example: Blackwater - Gatwick, route +Any Permitted is shown first when the cheaper ticket route Gomshall (the ticket they actually need) is well down the list).
The software is badly designed and is not very user friendly, have had frequent complaints about not being able to find the Railcard discount option, they have a tendency to get vandalised and without sufficent shelter always suffer badly from the elements.
I understand the logic behind wanting more TVM's. But they are nowhere near ready to replace booking offices imo. There is no logic in removing Ticket Offices and Guards to be replaced with TVM's and DOO. My local line is a perfect testament to how much money can be lost through DOO. Because after all, who is going to buy a ticket from a TVM if you know that no-one is going to check to see if you have a ticket in the first place? You may save money from staff cuts but will you see the savings when the revenue drops off a cliff? I doubt it.
And as for the smart cards. Where to begin? Season tickets, why not? Makes sense to me. The amount of times I have seen worn out annuals etc, I have lost count. Smart cards for season tickets seems logical and sensible to me. But for daily tickets? PAYG style? Can't see it working outside of barriered stations really. Who's going to touch in and out and unmanned stations? With no guards on the train who would know?
As for "smart ticketing" I can't see commuters swallowing it. The claim is that fares will not increase as much but with smart ticketing that's nonsense. Commuters WILL be hammered.
All in all it appears that those who use trains the most frequently and at the busiest times (a core demographic) are going to be utterly hammered. They are going to be paying through the nose for a much less personal service. Pay more, get less. That's what this basically is. It's just being dressed up as 'value for money' in the hope that people swallow it.
For once I genuinely feel for commuters. Because when they begin moaning about being charged much more because they have to be on the 'Super Mega Ultra Expensive Peak Of The Peaks Service' like everyone else and see no improvement apart from less staff, less information, no ticket checks, more fare evaders and yet more fare rises I will feel for them. Because they are being short-changed. They just don't know it yet.
I understand the need to get things in order. I fully understand that subsidising the railway cannot last forever. But doing it this way? There are so many other ways of saving money. Better ways. Ways that won't impact on service quality.
ROSCO's are the behemoth that really need culling. ROSCO's were without doubt the biggest mistake in privatisation. What should have happened should have been that the rolling stock was handed out with the franchise's as part of the agreements that are signed. Not leased! Why are we paying to lease something we have already bought for goodness sake! That's like paying for your house in cash and then paying the bank mortgage payments on it. Silly! The DaFT should be in charge of the rolling stock. Not the banks. Give us our trains back!
The software is badly designed and is not very user friendly, have had frequent complaints about not being able to find the Railcard discount option, they have a tendency to get vandalised and without sufficent shelter always suffer badly from the elements.
I understand the logic behind wanting more TVM's. But they are nowhere near ready to replace booking offices imo. There is no logic in removing Ticket Offices and Guards to be replaced with TVM's and DOO. My local line is a perfect testament to how much money can be lost through DOO. Because after all, who is going to buy a ticket from a TVM if you know that no-one is going to check to see if you have a ticket in the first place? You may save money from staff cuts but will you see the savings when the revenue drops off a cliff? I doubt it.
And as for the smart cards. Where to begin? Season tickets, why not? Makes sense to me. The amount of times I have seen worn out annuals etc, I have lost count. Smart cards for season tickets seems logical and sensible to me. But for daily tickets? PAYG style? Can't see it working outside of barriered stations really. Who's going to touch in and out and unmanned stations? With no guards on the train who would know?
As for "smart ticketing" I can't see commuters swallowing it. The claim is that fares will not increase as much but with smart ticketing that's nonsense. Commuters WILL be hammered.
All in all it appears that those who use trains the most frequently and at the busiest times (a core demographic) are going to be utterly hammered. They are going to be paying through the nose for a much less personal service. Pay more, get less. That's what this basically is. It's just being dressed up as 'value for money' in the hope that people swallow it.
For once I genuinely feel for commuters. Because when they begin moaning about being charged much more because they have to be on the 'Super Mega Ultra Expensive Peak Of The Peaks Service' like everyone else and see no improvement apart from less staff, less information, no ticket checks, more fare evaders and yet more fare rises I will feel for them. Because they are being short-changed. They just don't know it yet.
I understand the need to get things in order. I fully understand that subsidising the railway cannot last forever. But doing it this way? There are so many other ways of saving money. Better ways. Ways that won't impact on service quality.
ROSCO's are the behemoth that really need culling. ROSCO's were without doubt the biggest mistake in privatisation. What should have happened should have been that the rolling stock was handed out with the franchise's as part of the agreements that are signed. Not leased! Why are we paying to lease something we have already bought for goodness sake! That's like paying for your house in cash and then paying the bank mortgage payments on it. Silly! The DaFT should be in charge of the rolling stock. Not the banks. Give us our trains back!
D1009
Established Member
I can't remember what the job title of the person is on a DLR train, but they are certainly trained to drive (for when computer says no), as I was once asked to move out of the front seat to enable him to do it.
Actually I do welcome progress, and heaven knows there are some necessary, welcome and long overdue suggestions in the DfT paper - which I have read, in its entirety.
By the way, I am not your "mate".
ANorthernGuard
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Oct 2010
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- 2,662
so i'll see you in the dole queue in 20 years time, I bet your a bundle of laughs at your depot.
:roll::roll:
They see ignorance is bliss, with some people its arrogance.
Anon Mouse
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Mar 2011
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- 1,274
I think its something like 'Train Agent' :roll:
This government don't care about public transport especially the railways occasionally the two publicity whores boris and david will have a publicity shot on a train or a tube somewhere then off they will go in their chauffeur driven cars.
Once government subsidy is completely eliminated from the railways only the well off will be able to use them and it will take a small mortgage to buy a ticket so the only substantial railway left by then will be in the london and home counties area.
Once government subsidy is completely eliminated from the railways only the well off will be able to use them and it will take a small mortgage to buy a ticket so the only substantial railway left by then will be in the london and home counties area.
D1009
Established Member
For "government" read British people, there's still only a minority that depend on the railway, and it's them that elect.....
Used to be that. It's now PSA (Passenger Services Assistant).
Schnellzug
Established Member
they also considerably decrease, yet another thing to do so, user friendliness & convenience.}~
ANorthernGuard
Established Member
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most are, just the odd one isn't lolvery friendly these yorkshire folk
Schnellzug
Established Member
A favourite at our local station is that on the 'front page' of the ticket machine, where the most popular tickets to Local destinations are shown, the next station (well, the next fairly major station) up the line is only shown for single tickets, for some incomprehensible reason. To find Returns, you have to go through all the "bacK", "Other Destinations" routine, then, you have to either scroll through pages & pages of "other Destinations", or type it out.
Barmy.
Twenty years is a long time. Long enough to protect yourself from the march of technology and the likely redundancies that will follow.
In the near term, job losses are likely in every sector during the recession, I'd recommend anyone in any job look at improving their employability in other areas. If the railways can operate with less staff, the railways will operate with less staff, strikes or not.
mountainmike
Member
I always thought it was "train captain"
starrymarkb
Established Member
Lille Metro trains and stations are unstaffed, just roving RPIs and Transport Police (far more visible then BTP in the UK)
But that is a closed system with Platform Edge Doors at all stations and other protections.
But that is a closed system with Platform Edge Doors at all stations and other protections.
Employing people for the sake of employment is very inefficient. I don't think it's out of line to call the railways at the moment inefficient given the very high fares in comparison to the rest of Europe and high subsidy from the government. There's clearly quite a lot wrong with the finances of the railway, to think the railway can be made more efficient without any redundancies is ridiculous.
Captain Chaos
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- 840
But does it have to start with redundancies should be the question. You don't have to sack people to save money.
It gave Westbury and Frome avoiding lines.
I have no idea about things becoming cheaper (probably not) but I can imagine them becoming simpler, with people able to use TVMs, their phone, their tablet or home computer. Or simply swiping their smartcard - which might, say, work like Oyster and levy a maximum fare if people don't touch in/out. The maximum fare would have to be a lot higher than London, but would in effect be a penalty fare charged until such time that you validate your journey correctly.
For that to work, every station would have readers/validators and all staff would also be able to validate. At night, when people might be tempted to try it on, you ensure a suitable high penalty fare for those who hadn't scanned in wherever they started.
We've discussed TVMs many times on here, with a number of solutions to make them easier to use and more advanced (and you can do both if you design the UI correctly). Besides the usability of the menus/system, I'd also be offering at least two options to buy tickets - one based on a 'wizard' that asks key questions, and a second that is for advanced users. I'd also make sure the whole railway system had the same UI for familiarity, regardless of TOC.
It's mad to have different systems next to each other at the same station! Sky can manage one UI on boxes made by loads of different companies. So could the railway.
I would love to see the same number of staff (possibly more) but with redefined roles, such as you detail.
If ticketing was made more simple, and smarter, a lot of the time consuming duties could be streamlined too.
For a holiday, including hotels and transfers etc I can see why you'd stick to going to a travel agent to speak face to face.
To be honest, I really don't want the same hassle for buying a train ticket. Rather than have a face to face conversation where the seller may still not know all the options or fares, I'd rather it being so simple I can do it on my phone while I'm walking to the station.
When you're booking a train trip that has very specific needs, with connections and so on - would you do that at the station, or aim to do it on the phone or online with someone? I'd not risk going to the station to get that sorted on the day, in case it was closed or there was a huge queue. If I wasn't a regular traveller, I'd not want to travel to the station beforehand either.
Surely any system would be sending its location in real time in the future (if not already) so the people in the operations centre would know before you did.
That's where technology can really excel, although I'm still unsure about mainline railway trains being able to drive themselves with no driver on hand to keep a watchful eye on things no camera/infrared/motion sensor could be 100% guaranteed to notice.
Of course, I accept that one day it may be possible to ensure 100% safety. I don't think we're quite there yet.
I think they will. I think NFC will become big on smartphones in the next 2-3 years (basically, when Apple 'invents' it as Google has struggled so far - my phone has NFC but I can't do much with it yet).
People will accept the convenience and I'd hope that a smartcard will offer some benefits that come with regular usage, like people have with a railcard today. Fares may change such that some routes are more expensive, but when you have a card that can be used over and over, you can introduce all sorts of offers.
You can offer discounts for people travelling the same route over and over, but not enough times to warrant a season. You can throw in offers of cheap/free travel at off-peak times. You might offer cashback or other loyalty points.
All things that would encourage more people to travel, with the ability to have some influence over how they do it.
It's limited only by imagination, and I'm sure we'll cock it up - but we don't have to assume that's a given!
Hmmm.. I'd have thought you'd be thinking they are too busy planning the next war with Argentina ahead of the next election to worry about the railway!
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ANorthernGuard
Established Member
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- 8 Oct 2010
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- 2,662
I have no idea about things becoming cheaper (probably not) but I can imagine them becoming simpler, with people able to use TVMs, their phone, their tablet or home computer. Or simply swiping their smartcard - which might, say, work like Oyster and levy a maximum fare if people don't touch in/out. The maximum fare would have to be a lot higher than London, but would in effect be a penalty fare charged until such time that you validate your journey correctly.
For that to work, every station would have readers/validators and all staff would also be able to validate. At night, when people might be tempted to try it on, you ensure a suitable high penalty fare for those who hadn't scanned in wherever they started.
We've discussed TVMs many times on here, with a number of solutions to make them easier to use and more advanced (and you can do both if you design the UI correctly). Besides the usability of the menus/system, I'd also be offering at least two options to buy tickets - one based on a 'wizard' that asks key questions, and a second that is for advanced users. I'd also make sure the whole railway system had the same UI for familiarity, regardless of TOC.
It's mad to have different systems next to each other at the same station! Sky can manage one UI on boxes made by loads of different companies. So could the railway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would love to see the same number of staff (possibly more) but with redefined roles, such as you detail.
If ticketing was made more simple, and smarter, a lot of the time consuming duties could be streamlined too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For a holiday, including hotels and transfers etc I can see why you'd stick to going to a travel agent to speak face to face.
To be honest, I really don't want the same hassle for buying a train ticket. Rather than have a face to face conversation where the seller may still not know all the options or fares, I'd rather it being so simple I can do it on my phone while I'm walking to the station.
When you're booking a train trip that has very specific needs, with connections and so on - would you do that at the station, or aim to do it on the phone or online with someone? I'd not risk going to the station to get that sorted on the day, in case it was closed or there was a huge queue. If I wasn't a regular traveller, I'd not want to travel to the station beforehand either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely any system would be sending its location in real time in the future (if not already) so the people in the operations centre would know before you did.
That's where technology can really excel, although I'm still unsure about mainline railway trains being able to drive themselves with no driver on hand to keep a watchful eye on things no camera/infrared/motion sensor could be 100% guaranteed to notice.
Of course, I accept that one day it may be possible to ensure 100% safety. I don't think we're quite there yet.
I've lost count when even a simple thing like a headcode has been wrongly inputted, GPS and simple track circuits should sort out a trains location but can a computer tell how many are injured and the aaproximate severity of injuries? Computers can only go so far, as I have said this really won't affect me for quite a few years and I am sure it will one day, this push for technology that fixes everything reminds me quite apt of a certain White Star line that the Press said was unsinkable......anyone seen the film I'll give you a clue the ship sinks at the end)
Indeed, perhaps every train should carry eight guards incase of an incident that incapacitates seven of them.
I agree that its better to have human assistance in the event of an emergency, but the guard is as susceptible to injury, if not moreso, than the passengers in the event of a crash.
Captain Chaos
Member
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Really? How have you come to this conclusion? What makes the Conductor more susceptible to injury as opposed to a passenger? We are all human beings after all and are all made from the same flesh and blood.
Well, I'm the one who is saying I don't believe technology is there yet - but I do think a train can relay information instantly, and if there's no driver but another member of staff who can relay information from a radio (that is, in turn, linked to control - with no coverage issues) then it's no different to the driver, who in many cases is more likely to be injured/killed than a guard.
Sensors on trains could no doubt report the severity of an accident, although it couldn't necessarily report injuries. Siemens do already have technology that will say how many people are on any carriage, and where, don't they? Join all the dots and we might get there - but there's also the issue of convincing the passengers.
Planes would be far more structurally sound without windows, and why do we need them? The fact is passengers want them. I personally wouldn't like to be on a plane without a pilot, as - like a train - they're paid for dealing with things when they go wrong more than for routine journeys.
Big difference; if the technology all goes pear-shaped on an automatic driverless train it's a simple matter to design the system to simply stop the train and await human assistance. Inconvenient for those on board and trains held up by the failure.
If the technology all goes pear shaped on an automatic aeroplane with no pilot, all the passengers die, which is a bit more than inconvenient for them.
I presume being up and about, walking through a train could increase your chances of injury than SOME people sitting down, especially those who may be facing away from the direction of travel.
I suspect you knew what he meant.
Of course that wouldn't happen if we had HSE rules that said staff must tether themselves to something as they stop to check tickets, serve drinks or whatever.
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