Antisocial behaviour on trains

[bramling]

Interesting you say that about the Tube as I don't recall ever having felt unsafe on it. Perhaps it's different in the outer reaches I don't frequent.

Parts of LU have really declined in the last decade or so, and as you allude to this tends to be more the middle and outer reaches.

What’s also tended to happen on LU is that bits which were problematic in the past now are less so, whilst other areas have taken their place. So for example the south end of the Northern Line was dire in the 80s but is now fairly decent, by contrast Golders Green to Edgware used to be sleepy suburbia but has now become horrific, and the High Barnet branch is starting to follow the same lead especially around Finchley Central.

It isn’t quite Tyne & Wear Metro, but it’s certainly getting that way. And unlike Tyneside where it tends to be gobby teenagers and Jeremy Kyle families, in London it may well be the real deal.

Stats back this up as well, as there has been quite an increase in stuff like robberies on LU in the last few years. The greater prevalence of valuable electronic devices on people may have created a cause/effect relationship here, but even so there’s a lot more bad stuff happening on LU now compared to 10-15 years ago.

 

[sheff1]

What I do think is that there's a major north-south divide on it. As a former Northerner I find this quite sad, but I find that ASB on medium distance trains into London (LNR, GWR, Chiltern etc) is limited to mild annoyances like playing the footy out loud on phones and maybe a bit of drunken loudness on Saturday evening "vomit comets", whereas on similar services around Northern cities (e.g. TPE) it gets far worse, with a rather larger proportion of passengers showing a complete lack of etiquette. By that I don't mean "talking to each other" as is verboten down South, I mean rudeness, aggression, feral kids, daytime drunkenness, littering etc.

I have never had the pleasure of a southern vomit comet but have travelled of 100s of Saturday evening trains in/out of various northern cities and can safely say I have never once encountered anyone vomiting.

The worst daytime drunkness I recall was on a late Saturday morning train from Reading to Waterloo which was full of rude, loud obnoxious drunks. Fortunately I was only going to Wokingham. Would agree though that littering seems more prevelant, around Manchester particularly.

 

[LowLevel]

I have never had the pleasure of a southern vomit comet but have travelled of 100s of Saturday evening trains in/out of various northern cities and can safely say I have never once encountered anyone vomiting.

The worst daytime drunkness I recall was on a late Saturday morning train from Reading to Waterloo which was full of rude, loud obnoxious drunks. Fortunately I was only going to Wokingham. Would agree though that littering seems more prevelant, around Manchester particularly.

Really? I've been working trains out of Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool etc for years and routinely find myself stepping over vomit

 

[sheff1]

Really? I've been working trains out of Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool etc for years and routinely find myself stepping over vomit

Obviously you are working the wrong trains .
Seriously, if you are going through the train you are going to find any vomit which exists whereas I aim to stay as far away as possible from the sort of people most likely to offend. On some occasions it has been clear someone has previously vomitted in a toilet but, as I say, I have never actually witnessed it - having said that, I will now probably fall for it this Saturday

 

[43066]

I have never had the pleasure of a southern vomit comet

It really isn’t a pleasure, having driven quite a few former southern region vomit comets, over the years. And stepped over puddles of vomit hundreds if not thousands of times, as traincrew in the SE London/Kent neck of the woods.

It’s a lot more affluent than the likes of Sheffield down here, it certainly isn’t any more classy…

Really? I've been working trains out of Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool etc for years and routinely find myself stepping over vomit

Like a postman with an unusual penchant for bad language, The East Midlands never fails to deliver in terms of feral drunks/coked up idiots, albeit some of the worst probably do originate from the southern counties .

 

[david1212]

.....
Indeed I would say the standard of behaviour from children is getting exceedingly poorer as time goes on. .....

On the subject of the screaming and uncontrolled children. Would it be fair to fight fire with fire? Does anyone know where I can get a saxophone? I'm sure I could make a sound just as piercing and irritating whilst I'm learning

Or just start screaming and crying yourself!
A grown human can probably easily out-screech a child.

......
They couldn't achieve the same piercing pitch though.

Last night in the supermarket were two childern of infant or younger junior school age. Both were screaming / screeching so loud as to be heard right across the store. As @Krokodil states it is the pitch on top of the volume. The accompanying adult, mother ?, made no effort to silence them. I can only assume she has at least selective deafness.

Maybe a guard's or referees whistle would be both as loud and piercing?

.... but I find that ASB on medium distance trains into London (LNR, GWR, Chiltern etc) is limited to mild annoyances ....

Over the years although I've travelled much less since 2020 I have found Chiltern generally OK. I normally travel 'up smoke' earlier than the main Wembley or other sports event e.g. Twickenham supporters. Travelling back mid-evening some can be 'happy' in more ways than one. If a later kick-off or extra time so the Wembley platforms still crowded the staff will aim to shoehorn as many as possible onto every northbound train. If so inevitably noisy and maybe singing but I've not seen abuse, heard foul language or found pools of anything. Once I saw a passenger lead off a train by friends ( Chiltern are DOO south of Banbury ) I guess overcome by alcohol consumption most logically to be ill in a corner then hope to recover enough to resume their journey on a later train.

 

[Route115?]

I think that it may have helped that off-peak patronage has increased over the years & that the increase seems to be amongst people who tend to behave better. The one advantage increase in mobile devices has been that it keeps people occupied and less likely to cause trouble but yes keeping the volume up is annoying. The spread of CCTV has helped.

The worst area in my experience has been the south coast on an arc between Ramsagate & Portsmouth but I may have been unlucky as to the time I was travelling.

 

[londonbridge]

I was once on a train going to an away Sunderland game with my regular match-going companion, we’d gone through Northampton where a group of lads from another club (forget which one) boarded, as soon as they saw our shirts they started singing about Adam Johnson being a paedophile and various uses of the F word, guard/train manager was nowhere to be found. We sat there without responding, eventually someone at the back of the carriage who was nothing to do with the football yelled at them to shut up as there were women and children present, whereupon they turned upon this guy threatening to “do him over” and using more unsavoury language. However just as it seemed to be about to kick off even further they reached their stop and piled off, walking off down the platform still shouting and banging on the windows at us. Two minutes after we left that station guard came wandering through the carriage…..

 

[trainophile]

To be fair, they sound like more than a match for one guard. I hope he’s alerted BTP though.

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

That's why I never wear colours to Oxford matches. It's almost always fine but it's not worth the risk.

 

[londonbridge]

To be fair, they sound like more than a match for one guard. I hope he’s alerted BTP though.

Usually I just keep my head down and avoid any real trouble, I’ve had other fans giving me a bit of verbal as I’ve left whichever mainline station I’ve returned into (generally Euston or Kings X) but I just do my best to ignore it and carry on walking without being provoked into an argument. The incident I described happened quite a few years back and mainly because Adam Johnson was in the news at that time.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Just thought I’d share a more recent (some might say more minor) incident I was witness to on Saturday.
A man in his late 60s in an aisle seat diagonally opposite me unwrapped some sort of cough sweet, and dropped the paper wrapper on the floor, in the aisle.
A couple in the seats on my side of the train looked at each other, and the husband politely said to the first man ‘excuse me sir, but you dropped your litter on the floor’
The older gent gruffly answered ‘it’s hardly litter, it’s a tiny piece of paper! Why don’t you just mind your own business?’ and crossed his arms, indicating that was the end of the exchange!
I really felt afterwards that I should have intervened and stated the obvious, that ‘litter is litter, that an accumulation on small bits soon becomes a tip’ or somesuch.
I guess I was just surprised at his attitude, given his age…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just thought I’d share a more recent (some might say more minor) incident I was witness to on Saturday.
A man in his late 60s in an aisle seat diagonally opposite me unwrapped some sort of cough sweet, and dropped the paper wrapper on the floor, in the aisle.
A couple in the seats on my side of the train looked at each other, and the husband politely said to the first man ‘excuse me sir, but you dropped your litter on the floor’
The older gent gruffly answered ‘it’s hardly litter, it’s a tiny piece of paper! Why don’t you just mind your own business?’ and crossed his arms, indicating that was the end of the exchange!
I really felt afterwards that I should have intervened and stated the obvious, that ‘litter is litter, that an accumulation on small bits soon becomes a tip’ or somesuch.
I guess I was just surprised at his attitude, given his age…

Oh, I do love it when on the local "moan" Facebook group people whine about having been pounced on by the local litter wardens and given a fine. "But they wait round the corner from the smoking area"...yes, because smokers almost all litter, so they can get a decent amount of fines given out! Good luck to them, say I, there is never any excuse for littering, however minor.

My next door neighbour is terrible for it, his driveway and path are covered in fag ends, despite his bins being just there so it'd take half a second just to chuck it in having stubbed it out.

I mean, it is his driveway so he can litter on it if he wants, but it just shows how lazy many smokers are over it.

 

[greyman42]

Oh, I do love it when on the local "moan" Facebook group people whine about having been pounced on by the local litter wardens and given a fine. "But they wait round the corner from the smoking area"...yes, because smokers almost all litter, so they can get a decent amount of fines given out! Good luck to them, say I, there is never any excuse for littering, however minor.

Fines are handed out to smokers littering outside Newcastle station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fines are handed out to smokers littering outside Newcastle station.

Good.

 

[WesternBiker]

Oh, I do love it when on the local "moan" Facebook group people whine about having been pounced on by the local litter wardens and given a fine. "But they wait round the corner from the smoking area"...yes, because smokers almost all litter, so they can get a decent amount of fines given out! Good luck to them, say I, there is never any excuse for littering, however minor.

My next door neighbour is terrible for it, his driveway and path are covered in fag ends, despite his bins being just there so it'd take half a second just to chuck it in having stubbed it out.

I mean, it is his driveway so he can litter on it if he wants, but it just shows how lazy many smokers are over it.

One of my neighbours in our communal block used to leave his fag ends in a tin by the back door (to the garden). It used to get very full and then fall over, but he always left it to someone else to clean up. He used to laugh it off if you complained.

Fortunately, he then gave up smoking altogether...

 

[Tetchytyke]

I guess I was just surprised at his attitude, given his age…

Everyone thinks of spotty 15 year olds when we talk of anti-social behaviour. But in my experience the absolute worst louts are men in their late 50s and 60s, all bald heads and beer bellies in Paul Smith polo shirts. Especially when they’re in groups and trying to convince themselves they’re still young.

But when you think these men were the ones kicking each other’s heads in during the 70s and 80s hooliganism, it all suddenly makes more sense. Leopards and spots and all that.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Everyone thinks of spotty 15 year olds when we talk of anti-social behaviour. But in my experience the absolute worst louts are men in their late 50s and 60s, all bald heads and beer bellies in Paul Smith polo shirts. Especially when they’re in groups and trying to convince themselves they’re still young.

But when you think these men were the ones kicking each other’s heads in during the 70s and 80s hooliganism, it all suddenly makes more sense. Leopards and spots and all that.

Indeed. The person I started this thread about was in the demographic you refer to

 

[bramling]

Everyone thinks of spotty 15 year olds when we talk of anti-social behaviour. But in my experience the absolute worst louts are men in their late 50s and 60s, all bald heads and beer bellies in Paul Smith polo shirts. Especially when they’re in groups and trying to convince themselves they’re still young.

But when you think these men were the ones kicking each other’s heads in during the 70s and 80s hooliganism, it all suddenly makes more sense. Leopards and spots and all that.

This is so true. There seems to be little correlation between age and poor behaviour in public spaces. If anything older people can be worse, and as well as being irritating it’s often the case that there’s a good dose of arrogance thrown in for added value too.

 

[Purple Train]

This is so true. There seems to be little correlation between age and poor behaviour in public spaces. If anything older people can be worse, and as well as being irritating it’s often the case that there’s a good dose of arrogance thrown in for added value too.

Quite - there is a significant percentage of older people (usually men) that are incapable of listening to anyone under the age of 40, and incapable of restraining themselves from sneering at anyone under 21.

 

[bramling]

Quite - there is a significant percentage of older people (usually men) that are incapable of listening to anyone under the age of 40, and incapable of restraining themselves from sneering at anyone under 21.

Indeed, and it can be quite rewarding to wind up these sorts of people. They will, of course, listen to younger people when they want or need something and it’s to their benefit.

Round where I am the worst types seem to be the 50s / early 60s types, as you say mainly men though not exclusively so. Their behaviour is more obnoxious than anti-social, but it generally involves expecting everything to revolve around themselves almost to parody levels of arrogance. This isn’t confined to trains though, I see it in all areas of life including in my town centre, my local gym, swimming pool, car parks, supermarkets etc etc.

 

[Purple Train]

Indeed, and it can be quite rewarding to wind up these sorts of people.

It's usually quite easy. Or maybe I'm just provocative!

Round where I am the worst types seem to be the 50s / early 60s types, as you say mainly men though not exclusively so. Their behaviour is more obnoxious than anti-social, but it generally involves expecting everything to revolve around themselves almost to parody levels of arrogance. This isn’t confined to trains though, I see it in all areas of life including in my town centre, my local gym, swimming pool, car parks, supermarkets etc etc.

Indeed. I've seen it mostly in birdwatching (you can probably imagine how) - quite amusing seeing their anger at how the bird displays for everyone else except them! Another tip I give myself (being under 21) is always stand as far away as you can from a 50s/early 60s-type man with a camera, whether spotting or birdwatching. Thankfully I'm no barge pole so it's not easy for me to get in their way - but hell hath no fury like a photographer scorned.

 

[al78]

Indeed, and it can be quite rewarding to wind up these sorts of people. They will, of course, listen to younger people when they want or need something and it’s to their benefit.

Round where I am the worst types seem to be the 50s / early 60s types, as you say mainly men though not exclusively so. Their behaviour is more obnoxious than anti-social, but it generally involves expecting everything to revolve around themselves almost to parody levels of arrogance. This isn’t confined to trains though, I see it in all areas of life including in my town centre, my local gym, swimming pool, car parks, supermarkets etc etc.

Rather a lot of stereotyping going on in this thread which I am not usually a fan of but this description immediately brought up images of a male version of Hyacinth Bucket.

 

[Aviator88]

Rather a lot of stereotyping going on in this thread which I am not usually a fan of but this description immediately brought up images of a male version of Hyacinth Bucket.

*Bouquet

 

[ExRes]

Rather a lot of stereotyping going on in this thread

Couldn't agree more, I'm always grateful that younger people are so perfect, so polite, so helpful, oops there I go now ....

 

[Merle Haggard]

Couldn't agree more, I'm always grateful that younger people are so perfect, so polite, so helpful, oops there I go now ....

Yes, very odd that ageism is an acceptable prejudice apparently. Try replacing the word 'old' with a race, colour, gender or orientation descriptive one and see how long it is before you get reported....
Odd thing is that being old, unlike those other prejudices, will eventually apply to every human being - except for those who have died earlier, of course. Perhaps the young don't realise that those are their only choices.

 

[Phil R]

Spent an interesting few minutes on a train today reacquainting some seat bases with their frames from which some now-absent jolly japer had presumably decided they needed to be separated..

 

[trainophile]

Spent an interesting few minutes on a train today reacquainting some seat bases with their frames from which some now-absent jolly japer had presumably decided they needed to be separated..

That's not just antisocial behaviour, it's vandalism. I'd be checking the CCTV cameras.

 

[185143]

Had it yesterday, on a TPE service heading up the WCML. A very drunk Scotsman sat blaring music out of his phone since he boarded, stood in the aisle at one point swigging from a 70cl bottle of whisky being aggressive to some Americans on the table infront of him.

The people behind me had had enough, had asked him to sit down and keep it down, which was just ignored. So they texted BTP. And to be fair, an officer got on at Lancaster and dealt with it very well indeed, the passenger was removed from the train and we got some peace.

 

[WesternBiker]

Had it yesterday, on a TPE service heading up the WCML. A very drunk Scotsman sat blaring music out of his phone since he boarded, stood in the aisle at one point swigging from a 70cl bottle of whisky being aggressive to some Americans on the table infront of him.

The people behind me had had enough, had asked him to sit down and keep it down, which was just ignored. So they texted BTP. And to be fair, an officer got on at Lancaster and dealt with it very well indeed, the passenger was removed from the train and we got some peace.

Good to hear.

I'm sorry the Americans had to endure that (presumably on vacation). Not the best we have to offer...