anti-pacer's observations on rail travel

[anti-pacer]

I went on a Derbyshire Wayfarer day out yesterday and took a Northern stopper from Wakefield Westgate to Sheffield. Surprisingly this wasn't the 142/144 I was expecting but a 158. Some scrote had left a Greggs porridge pot on the floor, which the conductor picked up and put in the bin.

The train was at 08:04 from Wakefield, so early, but had coffee cups on tables etc. I commented on some of the "lovely clientelle" that travel on the trains up here, and his response was, "Oh, this is nothing, wait til 8 o'clock tonight".

Contrast this to the next train I travelled on, the 14:37 Matlock-Nottingham service, which I took as far as Long Eaton. I got on as soon as passengers had alighted, and the train was spotless.

I have had a discussion with Northern Rail about having more mobile cleaners, or at least some uniformity to it so all services see at least one litter pick during service. I was told they couldn't afford it and it wasn't a franchise requirement.

So my question is this, do EMT have mobile cleaners for their local services, or are the travelling public of the East Midlands just more considerate to their surroundings? Also, why do Northern not want to spend a penny on providing a good service, be it in train cleanliness, or the quality of their so called refurbishments, which are pitiful compared to EMT.

 

[Adam0984]

Northern do have mobile cleaners. On that route they travel Meadowhall to Sheffield or quickly get picked at Sheffield generally only the ones that go into 3/4/5. The mobile cleaners at Leeds generally do the Leeds - Skipton/Bradford/Ilkley and Leeds - Bramley/Pudsey/Bradford Int and Leeds to Horsforth. and trains get picked in Leeds on the Leeds - Sheffield/Nottingham expresses.

The train you caught will have started its day in Sheffield clean on a Saturday it's generally a small turnaround at Leeds and will have got litter picked meadowhall/Sheffield. Northern in the past year have invested in more cleaners as a result of a poor score in the NPS

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I find it surprising that franchise requirements vary so much.
Why is EMT told to clean but Northern isn't?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find it surprising that franchise requirements vary so much.
Why is EMT told to clean but Northern isn't?

Is EMT told to, or is that just Stagecoach pride in their appearance again?

You don't often see Stagecoach buses mucky, full of litter or with dented panels. They're big on their appearance, and they do it very well indeed.

Neil

 

[142094]

You don't often see Stagecoach buses mucky, full of litter or with dented panels. They're big on their appearance, and they do it very well indeed.

Bet to differ here, in my experience Stagecoach buses are no better than any other company.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think it depends on the depot, just, I guess like anything else???

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it depends on the depot, just, I guess like anything else???

To some extent possibly so, but my observation suggests that with Stagecoach a badly managed depot (in a cleaning/visible maintenance sense) is an exception, whereas with some other operators (e.g. Arriva), mucky buses, dented panels and missing bits of branding (not to mention filthy interiors) seem to be more common and a high standard of cleanliness/appearance to be the exception at particularly good depots.

And all Stagecoach TOCs (getting back on topic) do seem to put a lot of effort into the appearance of their trains, inside and out, whereas Northern don't. LM are another TOC where a mucky train is really an exception, and VT, though the latter is hard to compare with Northern, having a completely different cost model.

Neil

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to note you're from Edinburgh where you have a decent TOC running your locals. Try travelling DAILY on Northern!

Quite. I used ScotRail a number of times recently, and I have been very impressed with the cleanliness and general condition of their trains and stations. Even isolated rural stations look modern and well-kept. They should really be proud of it.

Northern, OTOH...

Neil

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Most major stations (Piccadilly for example) Normally have 2 cleaners based at the station and 1 that travels between Piccadilly and Stockport. The trouble is when you have numerous people who like to use trains to dump food, Papers, general rubbish on the floor because cannot be arsed to put it in the bin 6 feet away. If I have time I do try and give a quick clean through but some passengers are just downright disgusting with their regards to what they do on trains.

 

[anti-pacer]

Quite. I used ScotRail a number of times recently, and I have been very impressed with the cleanliness and general condition of their trains and stations. Even isolated rural stations look modern and well-kept. They should really be proud of it.

Northern, OTOH...

Neil

Exactly Neil.

Easy for people to criticise a viewpoint from afar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most major stations (Piccadilly for example) Normally have 2 cleaners based at the station and 1 that travels between Piccadilly and Stockport. The trouble is when you have numerous people who like to use trains to dump food, Papers, general rubbish on the floor because cannot be arsed to put it in the bin 6 feet away. If I have time I do try and give a quick clean through but some passengers are just downright disgusting with their regards to what they do on trains.

So why do WE up north seem to have a particular problem with this? EMT as I said were much cleaner.

Also, total respect to you for taking the time to tidy your train. Unfortunately too many guards have the "that's not in my job description" to do the same.

I worked for National Express in Nottingham as an assistant manager in the travel office, which included a waiting room. It wasn't in my job description to go and remove litter left by passengers, but I did it for the benefit of passengers who didn't want to wait for their coach surrounded by other peoples cr**.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Exactly Neil.

Easy for people to criticise a viewpoint from afar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So why do WE up north seem to have a particular problem with this? EMT as I said were much cleaner.

Also, total respect to you for taking the time to tidy your train. Unfortunately too many guards have the "that's not in my job description" to do the same.

I worked for National Express in Nottingham as an assistant manager in the travel office, which included a waiting room. It wasn't in my job description to go and remove litter left by passengers, but I did it for the benefit of passengers who didn't want to wait for their coach surrounded by other peoples cr**.

Apart from a bit of Laziness I was the same "its not my job" crowd, in the hope of Northern employing more cleaners. However obviously that didn't happen and we gave up.

 

[anti-pacer]

Apart from a bit of Laziness I was the same "its not my job" crowd, in the hope of Northern employing more cleaners. However obviously that didn't happen and we gave up.

So what made you change your view and tidy up the trains you work?

 

[dave87016]

I notice that plenty of EM trains guards on the run from Man Picc - Norwich train after departing Man Piccadilly and often pick rubbish up and put them in the bins whilst walking through on ticket checks.

I to agree regarding Scotrail trains and stations

 

[anti-pacer]

I notice that plenty of EM trains guards on the run from Man Picc - Norwich train after departing Man Piccadilly and often pick rubbish up and put them in the bins whilst walking through on ticket checks.

I to agree regarding Scotrail trains and stations

Is this because they have to on the North West of their journey? How do their trains fare in terms of passenger cleanliness further down the line in the East Midlands and the East of England?

 

[Blindtraveler]

Im afraid the thing with Scotrail is more down to Government standards than a First Group desire to keep things clean. A passenger caught in yesturdays Sink Whole disruption on the ECML who chose to use the ticket on a First Bus to Dunbar rather than a First Scotrail train would have been prented with a rather grotty environment. Northern is mhat Id considder as my next door neighbour TOC as no matter which rail route out of Scotland I use many of the connections are opperated by them and I still maintain they do there best. ↲↲

If all those with no other choice than to use there trains are so unhappy with them, them vote with your feet, it works

 

[Chrism20]

Im afraid the thing with Scotrail is more down to Government standards than a First Group desire to keep things clean. A passenger caught in yesturdays Sink Whole disruption on the ECML who chose to use the ticket on a First Bus to Dunbar rather than a First Scotrail train would have been prented with a rather grotty environment. Northern is mhat Id considder as my next door neighbour TOC as no matter which rail route out of Scotland I use many of the connections are opperated by them and I still maintain they do there best. ↲↲

If all those with no other choice than to use there trains are so unhappy with them, them vote with your feet, it works

Indeed a lot of it is down to Squire, although to be fair to First they haven't just done the minimum they have improved things as well as maintained.

As you say their East of Scotland bus service is a disgrace. Of the three main operators operating within the Edinburgh area (First, Lothian and Stagecoach) First are by far the worst. Lothian are in a class of their own and Stagecoaches operation is pretty much as described by Neil whereas you cannot even see in the windows of First and the fumes that come of them has to bordering on hazardous.

I was on a Northern service yesterday between Preston and Blackpool North and a cleaner did board it as I got off. I'd guess they would have easily filled four or five bags with the amount of rubbish that was left by passengers. Aside from the rubbish the set also could be doing with a right good jet wash inside, the dirt in some of the corners was something else.

Some passengers are just lazy at the end of the day and will leave stuff sitting anywhere. On the service I was on yesterday the bin nearest me was overflowing so the only option was to leave it or take it with you and the lack of bins, albeit due to security in some stations only makes things more difficult for the TOC.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So what made you change your view and tidy up the trains you work?

Came to the conclusion nothing is going to change, so just got on with it.

 

[anti-pacer]

Came to the conclusion nothing is going to change, so just got on with it.

Well fair play to you.

 

[Richard1960]

Is this because they have to on the North West of their journey? How do their trains fare in terms of passenger cleanliness further down the line in the East Midlands and the East of England?

I have used EMT from Norwich and they are very clean indeed,Norwich Station has cleaning staff that go through the train berfore passengers board,and they usually have plenty of time to do it.

Also have used them Ely to Norwich and found them to be quite clean also very impressive all round.

 

[fowler9]

I love the service Northern provide me with and am not particularly bothered how much litter is left on board as long as the train turns up pretty close to the advertised time. I don't litter myself and don't appreciate people who do but I have more things to worry about to be honest. EMT provide me with the nicest trains that I regularly use, they collect litter before the train arrives in Lime Street (But that isn't why I like them). The Desiros used by FTPE and LM frequently have both toilets locked out of use which bothers me far more than how many sandwich wrappers or coffee cups are left on the tables.

 

[anti-pacer]

I love the service Northern provide me with and am not particularly bothered how much litter is left on board as long as the train turns up pretty close to the advertised time. I don't litter myself and don't appreciate people who do but I have more things to worry about to be honest. EMT provide me with the nicest trains that I regularly use, they collect litter before the train arrives in Lime Street (But that isn't why I like them). The Desiros used by FTPE and LM frequently have both toilets locked out of use which bothers me far more than how many sandwich wrappers or coffee cups are left on the tables.

Each to their own, but I'd rather not see the remains of someone elses lunch/snack.

Maybe northerners are less bothered about presentation.

 

[fowler9]

Each to their own, but I'd rather not see the remains of someone elses lunch/snack.

Maybe northerners are less bothered about presentation.

I would agree with you on that but I don't expect to see a cleaner on every Northern service or if I did I would expect to be paying a lot more. Based on experience working in the housing sector I don't think northerners are any more untidy than southerners.

 

[anti-pacer]

I would agree with you on that but I don't expect to see a cleaner on every Northern service or if I did I would expect to be paying a lot more. Based on experience working in the housing sector I don't think northerners are any more untidy than southerners.

So how do EMT and LM manage it? Two of the other operators who operate out of your home town station, Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[fowler9]

So how do EMT and LM manage it? Two of the other operators who operate out of your home town station, Liverpool Lime Street.

You missed out FTPE. FTPE often have trains leave Lime Street with bin bags full of rubbish sat by the front most set of doors, normally by first class, I can't confirm where these are taken off but it doesn't look very classy. LM operate every half an hour, many of their trains are commuter style 3+2 so it isn't as obvious if people have left stuff on tables. I'm not sure what happens to EMT rubbish but they do collect litter before Lime Street and I don't see it left by the front door before departure like with FTPE. Northern operate frequent commuter services which are completely different. I have no idea about their cleaning service. The level of cleanliness doesn't bother me.

 

[anti-pacer]

You missed out FTPE. FTPE often have trains leave Lime Street with bin bags full of rubbish sat by the front most set of doors, normally by first class, I can't confirm where these are taken off but it doesn't look very classy. LM operate every half an hour, many of their trains are commuter style 3+2 so it isn't as obvious if people have left stuff on tables. I'm not sure what happens to EMT rubbish but they do collect litter before Lime Street and I don't see it left by the front door before departure like with FTPE. Northern operate frequent commuter services which are completely different. I have no idea about their cleaning service. The level of cleanliness doesn't bother me.

So maybe with your own attitude to cleanliness, it goes to explain why we have an issue with it up north in terms of poor standards.

No offence meant by the way.

 

[northernchris]

travelling DAILY on Northern!

I do, and have to say they are the best operator I've travelled with. Mostly use them on the Airedale and Calder Valley routes and rarely have an issue with the cleanliness - the exterior cleanliness in particular is something which has improved drastically over the past year. On the other hand I've used East Coast services between Doncaster and Leeds which have not only had litter strewn across many of the seats but also bags full of rubbish dumped in the doorway

 

[Blindtraveler]

Dont worry chriss, now Anti Pacer has discovered that TPEs trains leav Liverpool complete with full sacks of rubbish He'll be starting a thread soon entitled The State of Liverpool Bound 185s and having another moan.

With regard to the rubbish bags on TPE maybe they come off at iether the nearest TPE Managed station or the nearest one where they have iether an onboard cleaner or a service contracter based? ↲

 

[fowler9]

So maybe with your own attitude to cleanliness, it goes to explain why we have an issue with it up north in terms of poor standards.

No offence meant by the way.

None taken. I don't approve of people littering. I am more concerned by a lack of capacity, FTPE leaving full bin bags by the exits as far as at least Warrington when travelling from Lime Street, trains operated by Virgin smelling like open sewers, trains operated by all companies that have toilets which are disgusting and in particular operators of Desiros running long distance services on a regular basis with no working toilets. This bothers me more than empty coffee cups.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont worry chriss, now Anti Pacer has discovered that TPEs trains leav Liverpool complete with full sacks of rubbish He'll be starting a thread soon entitled The State of Liverpool Bound 185s and having another moan.

With regard to the rubbish bags on TPE maybe they come off at iether the nearest TPE Managed station or the nearest one where they have iether an onboard cleaner or a service contracter based? ↲

You are probably right as regards the rubbish bags. Still pretty vile though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Agreed, with both this and your point Re diziro bogs. As someone who has been known to split tickets onto a dirt cheep LM Advance when Midlands Bound I now ensure Iv gone on my previous train.

Are X Liverpool TPEs First Stop Warrington?

 

[anti-pacer]

Dont worry chriss, now Anti Pacer has discovered that TPEs trains leav Liverpool complete with full sacks of rubbish He'll be starting a thread soon entitled The State of Liverpool Bound 185s and having another moan.

With regard to the rubbish bags on TPE maybe they come off at iether the nearest TPE Managed station or the nearest one where they have iether an onboard cleaner or a service contracter based? ↲

Well, Blindtraveller, I apologise for wanting to travel on clean trains. I mean, it's obviously wrong of me.

Tell me, do you ever eat out? If so, would you accept a table that had the remains of someone elses rubbish? Of course you wouldn't!

Northern have introduced more mobile cleaners as a result of low scores in a survey, as pointed out by another forum user. So us passengers can't all be wrong, even though it's fellow passengers causing the problem.

Sorry if you don't have the same standards of cleanliness as me, but accept some people want to travel on clean trains.