Another train leaves Guildford early

[Minilad]

No it isn't.............the onus is on the train operator to adhere to the timetable.

I'd also question why you seem willing to tolerate a sub standard service? I wouldn't and nor would many others. I worked in the bus industry and any driver running early would find themselves in the managers office for a little chat. The trouble is that if people just put up with it and don't put in a complaint then management probably won't know about it. Yes there are 'variables' that might cause a bus to be late, that cannot be helped, but there is NO EXCUSE for running early and I would assume the same applies on the railway?

The railway employee involved in early running would likely have the same chat if discovered. Just the same as any bus driver would. In my experience there is far more early running involving buses than trains

 

[fowler9]

I don't know, there are only rare occasions when public transport should leave early and it should be a jolly good reason. But stuff happens. Over the years with the railways it has happened very rarely, it has been very annoying but I have been cutting things very fine. People make mistakes or possibly had a very good reason. It happens more frequently on the buses although the only recent occasion for me was when a driver was obviously distracted by a motorist driving like a maniac. I always try and catch a service that will get me to work etc. 20 to 30 minutes early with a back up if at all possible. I always try and get to the station or bus stop at least 5 minutes before my service is due. I am not perfect and not everyone has the luxury of time, not even myself sometimes, but I find it makes my life less stressful.

In a perfect world I'd get a train or bus scheduled t get me to work in just enough time to get logged on to my computer for start time. I don't live in a perfect world though. I know plenty of people in my office who drive to work who get in to work stupidly early in case of snarl ups on the road. Again, they wish it didn't happen but it does.

 

[infobleep]

I don't have a set start time at work, only core hours.

Interestingly there were staff on platform 1 and 2 thus morning and one shouted for someone to stand away from the 8.07. No such shouting when I was stood right next to the 7.36 on Friday.

There have been signalling problems at Portsmouth this morning which might explain the extra staff on platforms at Guildford.

There are also far less school children on this train which shows how many for London Road (Guildford) travel up from the Portsmouth direction.

Interesting to note that if people live in places at Milford and Whitly, they would need to catch the a train almost 30 minutes earlier from 3rd October, if they wish to be on this particular train, due to the leaf fall timetable removing the connection time off the 8.02 arrival.

No wonder the children run across the footbridge during the leaf fall timetable period. I'm not saying scraping the leaf fall timetable would make things better, just pointing out what happens because of it.

I don't actually know which stations the children are coming from but I do see them running to catch the train at times.

As for allowing 5 minutes at stations, at some stations the official connection time between trains is 4 minutes. At Aldershot, when coming from Guildford and heading to Farnham, you can usually catch the next train in, even though it's not an official connection. The gap is just 3 minutes. According to the timetable one must wait 33 minutes for the next train.

So there are cases where people arrive less than 5 minutes for a train.

 

[Antman]

Why so aggressive?
What you want is not always possible.
As has been pointed out several times, the railway expect you to be there at least 5 minutes before your train is due. Therefore you should be able to plan to do that. If you can't then you need to plan in a better way.
Would you expect the same if you were catching the bus?
Would you take the same aggressive stance against RyanAir (for example) who demand that you book in 2 hours before your flight?

And stop the "Me, Me, Me" attitude, it isn't very becoming.

Who is being aggresive?????

So 'the railway' (whoever they are?) expect everybody to be there five minutes before their train is due? That's a new one on me, when was that rule introduced?

The comparison with Ryanair is ridiculous.

What 'me me me attitude'? Is expecting trains not to leave before the advertised departure time really too much to ask?:roll:

 

[Antman]

There are plenty of reasons why a bus may be early. Where I live, there's a little timetable padding to account for a godawful stretch of one way road. If nobody is waiting at the intermediate stops between there and the stop I use, it's entirely possible for the driver to arrive and depart my stop a whole minute early!

I also don't trust arriving one minute early because clocks aren't always right, not even synced mobile phone ones.

There are plenty of reasons why a bus or train may be late, but not early. It may be only one minute early but that could be the difference between somebody getting the bus/train or missing it.

I would normally arrive more than a minute before departure time but, just like the bus or train, I might be delayed en route and if I had busted a gut to get there only to find that the 10.30 departure had left at 10.29 I would not be impressed. Obviously if I got there at 10.31 and saw it disappearing into the distance then that's just my hard luck..............trains are very rarely late when you want them to be

 

[AmeralGunson]

Why so aggressive?
What you want is not always possible.
As has been pointed out several times, the railway expect you to be there at least 5 minutes before your train is due. Therefore you should be able to plan to do that. If you can't then you need to plan in a better way.
Would you expect the same if you were catching the bus?
Would you take the same aggressive stance against RyanAir (for example) who demand that you book in 2 hours before your flight?

And stop the "Me, Me, Me" attitude, it isn't very becoming.

"What you want is not always possible".
So I can't catch a train that sticks to the timetable but must grin and bear it if it departs two minutes early which was the original theme of this thread.

Interesting comparison, airlines and railways.
Airline.
Arrive well before aeroplane departure time due to having to check-in, security measures, time for baggage to be stowed. Personally I wouldn't use Ryanair.
Train. Arrive on platform one minute before train is due, step on train. travel.
Bus. Tends to run to a plus or minus timetable due to traffic, totally different system, no planned pathway.
It's not me being aggressive although several of the replies have been. What is so difficult about ensuring a train departs on time rather than early? Isn't that what rail staff are paid to do amongst other duties? I had a careful look around my local station (Earlswood) this morning. There's no sign telling or advising me to be on the platform five minutes before a train is due. I also looked around Redhill station this afternoon but there's no such notice there either. I think that your supposed five minute rule must be just that, supposed. Received wisdom as used to be said.

 

[theblackwatch]

As has been pointed out several times, the railway expect you to be there at least 5 minutes before your train is due.

Have you a source for this? I've been travelling by train for over 30 years and never seen this in any notice at a station or in a timetable.

 

[AmeralGunson]

There isn't one. I suspect that the poster is a railway person who, in the best traddition of British Rail just can't say, "whoops, sorry, we got it wrong".

Oh dear, there I go being all aggressive again.

 

[LowLevel]

There isn't really any debate in it to be honest. If a train leaves 2 minutes early it's left 2 minutes early, the responsible staff will get a form 1, the company will pick up a cancellation in the stats and that's that. Where the passenger happens to be in proceedings is really irrelevant. The only real guidance to passengers on when to arrive is to leave a reasonable amount of time to do what they need to do to get on the train. That doesn't take into account trains leaving early.

The only thing that is really incumbent on the passenger is a) to leave a reasonable (undefined) time to arrange travel tickets if required and b) to get to their platform without running, as I personally have no time or interest in sorting out the mess if they slip over and smash their skull, which massively inconveniences others.

If a train leaves early for any reason other than an emergency (fire alarms sounding etc) or a control authorised departure as it's full, it's a cock up. As a guard I have no issue admitting that.

 

[gswindale]

The difficulty is: what is on time?

Is it the platform clock that is controlled centrally but may not be visible by the guard?
Is it the guard's watch which would ideally be radio controlled, but is still subject to occasional glitches like my watch and Alarm clock which can cause it to run slightly fast?
Is it Joe Bloggs' watch that he sets at precisely 21:00 the night before but loses/gains time over the day?

In an ideal world; the guard and platform clocks would be in sync but this may not always happen. I know that my radio controlled watch does not always match the time at my local station for whatever reason.

What happens on lines with many request stops? Presumably the timetable allows for a dwell time at each station, but if no one wants the first half a dozen, then anybody aiming to catch a train at a much further station along the route risks missing it if they only allow a minute or two between their arrival and the advertised departure time. Whose fault would a missed train be in that ?

 

[LowLevel]

I work to my railway issued time piece which I check against at least 2 sources each day. It's never been more than a couple of seconds out. If it does fail (which happened once when it reset itself) I worked off my phone clock which also autocorrects and waited a bit longer to make sure I wasn't going early - I lost a minute or two but it's appropriate to err on the side of caution if you aren't sure.

You have to work off something and that something is the equipment issued to me to do the job which I maintain in a decent, working condition like all my equipment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What you want is not always possible.

Why isn't it possible?

I really don't buy into all this "train doors will close 2 minutes before departure" nonsense. A punctual getaway is important, but there's nothing saying the working timetable and the public timetable have to match. If you need the train out of the platform at 1624 then print the departure time as 1620, and remove the train from the departure screens at 1620. It's not as though the railways don't do the same trick at the end of the journey to add a shed-load of recovery time and padding.

Mistakes happen and I don't think railway staff should be hung out to dry for them. But where it repeatedly happens it's not acceptable.

 

[bb21]

Why isn't it possible?

I really don't buy into all this "train doors will close 2 minutes before departure" nonsense. A punctual getaway is important, but there's nothing saying the working timetable and the public timetable have to match. If you need the train out of the platform at 1624 then print the departure time as 1620, and remove the train from the departure screens at 1620. It's not as though the railways don't do the same trick at the end of the journey to add a shed-load of recovery time and padding.

Mistakes happen and I don't think railway staff should be hung out to dry for them. But where it repeatedly happens it's not acceptable.

Ah, but that will affect headline journey times, for a start.

 

[infobleep]

Well given they increase the journey times for the leaf fall period any way it wouldn't matter.

At Waterloo in the evening some trains are timetabled in the WTT to leave a minute later, so it already happens in places. The 8.19 from Clapham Junction to Basingstoke is timetabled in the WTT to leave 8.20 so every day passengers see the train as never being on time when it is according to the WTT. Actually it fairly often isn't even by the WTT standards but it's a busy period of peak rush hour.

I think London Midland should adjust the public timetable for there trains from Tring into Euston as they are never on time.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you need the train out of the platform at 1624 then print the departure time as 1620, and remove the train from the departure screens at 1620.

When that's suggested the usual response is that a) people will then moan their train left four minutes late and b) people will moan that they should be able to board the train as it still there sat in the platform.

Whatever the railway does it seems destined to annoy someone!

 

[Wolfie]

There isn't really any debate in it to be honest. If a train leaves 2 minutes early it's left 2 minutes early, the responsible staff will get a form 1, the company will pick up a cancellation in the stats and that's that. Where the passenger happens to be in proceedings is really irrelevant. The only real guidance to passengers on when to arrive is to leave a reasonable amount of time to do what they need to do to get on the train. That doesn't take into account trains leaving early.

The only thing that is really incumbent on the passenger is a) to leave a reasonable (undefined) time to arrange travel tickets if required and b) to get to their platform without running, as I personally have no time or interest in sorting out the mess if they slip over and smash their skull, which massively inconveniences others.

If a train leaves early for any reason other than an emergency (fire alarms sounding etc) or a control authorised departure as it's full, it's a cock up. As a guard I have no issue admitting that.

I assume that full Delay Repay or similar should be paid in such circumstances? If not, why not? After all the failure is by the TOC or its agent NOT the passenger!

 

[Sheepy1209]

Doesn't the 5 minutes come from that being the minimum connection time, unless stated otherwise for a particular station? In other words, if a passenger allows 5 minutes between trains they should be able to disembark, maybe cross to another platform, and catch their intended train.

That's the only place I've seen it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think London Midland should adjust the public timetable for there trains from Tring into Euston as they are never on time.

They already do, although they still can't seem to stick to the public timetable.

In fairness this seems to be because the signallers on that stretch of the WCML seem determined to prioritise freight trains over passenger trains. Last night we trundled at 20mph all the way from Willesden to Bushey because of a late-running freight train chucked out in front of us, it's getting ridiculous. I always wince when I see a Freightliner go through the station before my train, as it's a guaranteed ten-minute delay.

When that's suggested the usual response is that a) people will then moan their train left four minutes late and b) people will moan that they should be able to board the train as it still there sat in the platform.

Whatever the railway does it seems destined to annoy someone!

It looking like the train is late leaving is a downside, definitely. But it is better than it looking as though it is locked early.

 

[bb21]

I believe it has been stated in certain publicity that it is recommended a passenger arrives 5 minutes before departure to ensure that there is plenty of time to get to the correct platform and onto the train. I don't think there ever is a requirement.

 

[infobleep]

Given the minimum connection times between trains vary from 4 minutes to 10 minutes, it would seem odd that passengers should arrive 5 minutes before their departure. So you should arrive 5 minutes before a departure but if changing trains you should allow 10.

To be fair at stations where the connection time is 10 minutes that is between different operators and not the same one. When it's the same one the connection time can drop to 5 minutes, may be even 4 in places. I don't know all the connection time variations across the network.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Here's the information you require, page 6 of 47:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May14/Commercial_Information.pdf

And this comes from SWTs website FAQ's.

Why do the trains close their doors before the departure time on the timetable?


We aim to run a right-time railway for our customers. To achieve this it is key that our trains depart (wheels turning) on time, it is therefore essential that we commence to close the doors 30 seconds before departure.

 

[bb21]

Given the minimum connection times between trains vary from 4 minutes to 10 minutes, it would seem odd that passengers should arrive 5 minutes before their departure. So you should arrive 5 minutes before a departure but if changing trains you should allow 10.

To be fair at stations where the connection time is 10 minutes that is between different operators and not the same one. When it's the same one the connection time can drop to 5 minutes, may be even 4 in places. I don't know all the connection time variations across the network.

That is a general rule, not one specific to any station.

 

[Tomnick]

In fairness this seems to be because the signallers on that stretch of the WCML seem determined to prioritise freight trains over passenger trains. Last night we trundled at 20mph all the way from Willesden to Bushey because of a late-running freight train chucked out in front of us, it's getting ridiculous. I always wince when I see a Freightliner go through the station before my train, as it's a guaranteed ten-minute delay.

There must be a bit more to it than that - a class 4, given a good run, should have no problem keeping out of the way of a following stopping passenger. Are theybooked into (or out of) a loop on unachievable timings somewhere along the way, or merely following something else? There's not a lot that can be done, either way - it's difficult to deviate from 'the plan' just because something's a bit tight (a good delay usually draws attention to the problem!) and there's a growing pressure (quite rightly) to avoid delaying freights nowadays, whereas previously it was a lot easier to stuff them out of the way for a while!

 

[infobleep]

Here's the information you require, page 6 of 47:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May14/Commercial_Information.pdf

And this comes from SWTs website FAQ's.

Why do the trains close their doors before the departure time on the timetable?


We aim to run a right-time railway for our customers. To achieve this it is key that our trains depart (wheels turning) on time, it is therefore essential that we commence to close the doors 30 seconds before departure.

That's the connection between trains. I generally allow more time when changing trains as trains could be late and I have no control over them arriving after the time stated.

However when traveling by my own two feet, I know what time I will arrive at the station and unless something serious happened to me on route, I should make the train.

 

[infobleep]

Here is a good example of why the trains are better than buses. This morning my train was 3 minutes late into Surbiton, not unusual. It arrived 9.14.

I just missed a 71 bus to Kingston and saw a K2 outside the station. As it was about to leave I went to the next bus stop, near by, to catch it. Nothing arrives so I went back to the previous bus stop, in case it was on diversion and find it still there 4 minutes later.

There was probably a good reason why the driver waited but the K2 is every 10 minutes and by the time it left, the next bus just was over 5 minutes away so I doubt it was running early. If I arrive tomorrow it won't wait for 4 minutes. I will get to work about 3-4 minutes quicker than if I'd walked as the traffic isn't great. It takes about 23 minutes to walk. There is of course no alert about any traffic problems. The only alerts I ever get on these bus routes are for underground stations or roads elsewhere. Never where I'm travelling from or to.

So as can be seen by this. The trains are not perfect but they are far better.

 

[fowler9]

Slightly away from the area mentioned in the thread title but I went for the 09:39 from West Allerton yesterday morning. I checked in the ticket office and was told it was going to be on platform 2. I saw the lights of a train reaching South Parkway but it was significantly before I would have expected to see the train I was waiting for. The train left South Parkway at about 33 or 34 minutes past and then moved over to the slow lines. Shortly afterwards the automatic announcement system again said the 09:39 would be on platform 2. A minute later it arrived on platform 4 at the time it was due at South Parkway and left West Allerton at least a minute early (The time may have just been 09:38). It would have been earlier but the guard waited for people making their way from platform 2.

 

[455driver]

Slightly away from the area mentioned in the thread title but I went for the 09:39 from West Allerton yesterday morning. I checked in the ticket office and was told it was going to be on platform 2. I saw the lights of a train reaching South Parkway but it was significantly before I would have expected to see the train I was waiting for. The train left South Parkway at about 33 or 34 minutes past and then moved over to the slow lines. Shortly afterwards the automatic announcement system again said the 09:39 would be on platform 2. A minute later it arrived on platform 4 at the time it was due at South Parkway and left West Allerton at least a minute early (The time may have just been 09:38). It would have been earlier but the guard waited for people making their way from platform 2.

That would be this train then-

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y74411/2014/09/27/advanced

 

[fowler9]

A couple of weeks ago I was catching a train from South Parkway to West Allerton (Lazy I know) and on the internet it was reported running late. I got to Parkway and found out it had left a good 5 minutes early. I asked the staff at the station and they said they do that sometimes, well not very often as I use the route on an almost daily basis at various times. I was n't complaining as I almost always allow time for a back up plan but leaving early should be a massive no no.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That would be this train then-

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y74411/2014/09/27/advanced

That would be the one. Looks like my estimates were slightly off, but only just. Like I say it would have left earlier if the train hadn't waited for people changing platforms.

Again, like I say I am not complaining as I generally allow enough time. Also the chap in the office at West Allerton is very good at his job and would have been as surprised as anyone that it came on 4 and was early. Later in the day the Oxford Road to Lime Street services frequently (Almost daily) show as running late for the entire journey, arrive on 4 at my local station, get held on the slow lines on the way in to Lime Street and arrive close to being on time.

 

[455driver]

That would be the one. Looks like my estimates were slightly off, but only just. Like I say it would have left earlier if the train hadn't waited for people changing platforms.

You can state that categorically can you or are you just assuming?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A couple of weeks ago I was catching a train from South Parkway to West Allerton (Lazy I know) and on the internet it was reported running late. I got to Parkway and found out it had left a good 5 minutes early.

Give me the date and time and I will look it up for you.

 

[fowler9]

You can state that categorically can you or are you just assuming?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Give me the date and time and I will look it up for you.

Yeah I am assuming. It left early anyway. Would you say it was a reasonable assumption that since the doors shut and the train left as soon as everyone was on it may have left earlier?

I don't know the date of the other recent occasion. I didn't think to note it down. As I say I am not complaining. I just think trains should not leave early. People make mistakes and things go wrong. I completely accept that.