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Another National Rail Enquiries Journey Planning Oddity

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Shaw S Hunter

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This weekend there is a complete blockade at Huddersfield though strike action means there will be trains only on Sunday. So I tried to plan a journey using NRE to various local destinations around Leeds from various points in western Greater Manchester. All fine and dandy, routes and fares available using either diverted TPE services via Brighouse or Northern services via Bradford.

Except from Wigan: this brings up the only valid option as being to use the separate replacement bus services between Stalybridge and Marsden, Marsden and Huddersfield, and Huddersfield and Leeds. End-to-end journeys can be found for the much quicker diversionary routes but with the message "No fares available" so no details of these journeys can be displayed. Most bizarre. Needless to say no such problem with this site's ticketing portal. Does anyone know why this is happening?
 
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Watershed

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The range of permitted routes from Huddersfield to Wigan doesn't include the Calder Valley, which is the route along which TPE trains from Brighouse are diverted. Accordingly, journey planners can only offer fares for itineraries involving the replacement buses via the Standedge route.

This is undoubtedly an oversight, as going via the Calder Valley has long been permitted for the likes of Huddersfield to Manchester. I guess it's just a journey that few people do, and even fewer do it when there are engineering works on necessitating a further change - so it hasn't been spotted yet.

RDG may well fix it now that you have raised it.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The range of permitted routes from Huddersfield to Wigan doesn't include the Calder Valley, which is the route along which TPE trains from Brighouse are diverted. Accordingly, journey planners can only offer fares for itineraries involving the replacement buses via the Standedge route.

This is undoubtedly an oversight, as going via the Calder Valley has long been permitted for the likes of Huddersfield to Manchester. I guess it's just a journey that few people do, and even fewer do it when there are engineering works on necessitating a further change - so it hasn't been spotted yet.

RDG may well fix it now that you have raised it.
But the Calder Valley route is perfectly valid for Wigan to various destinations around Leeds and connecting there. So there must surely be more to it. Could there be some connection to easements that may have been in place during the recent Hindley blockade?
 

yorkie

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But the Calder Valley route is perfectly valid for Wigan to various destinations around Leeds and connecting there. So there must surely be more to it. Could there be some connection to easements that may have been in place during the recent Hindley blockade?
Can you clarify what day & time this is for? This is for Sunday, yes?

Also, is there an example itinerary which you have identified as being quicker than the rail replacement bus option?

I had a quick look at Wigan to Huddersfield this Sunday, and the quickest options do seem to involve a rail replacement bus, unless I am missing something?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Can you clarify what day & time this is for? This is for Sunday, yes?

Also, is there an example itinerary which you have identified as being quicker than the rail replacement bus option?

I had a quick look at Wigan to Huddersfield this Sunday, and the quickest options do seem to involve a rail replacement bus, unless I am missing something?
Yes, for Sunday. And the affected journey involves Wigan-Leeds (for connections) meaning that travel via the Calder Valley is absolutely the optimum choice, as in up to 2 hours quicker (no express buses running) which applies right through the day, hence my puzzlement (I tried various start times from first thing to mid-afternoon). For some reason NRE wants Wigan passengers to all go via Huddersfield, involving 3 buses, but passengers from the likes of Bolton, Atherton, Hindley and even Gathurst are correctly routed via Rochdale. And it matters not whether using North Western, Wallgate or Wigan Stations as the origin. Utterly bizarre.
 

Watershed

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But the Calder Valley route is perfectly valid for Wigan to various destinations around Leeds and connecting there. So there must surely be more to it. Could there be some connection to easements that may have been in place during the recent Hindley blockade?
Every pair of stations has a separate set of permitted routes; they aren't calculated recursively (I.e. just because Wigan to Huddersfield is valid via Manchester, that doesn't mean that it inherits all of the valid routes between Manchester and Huddersfield). Such a system would arguably make sense but it isn't how things work.

It's also worth noting that aside from anything else, for Wigan to Leeds, it may well be that the Calder Valley is within 3 miles of the shortest route - whereas for Wigan to Huddersfield, it's comparatively more of a detour (you go east of Huddersfield before heading back west) and I would be surprised if it's within 3 miles. Routes within 3 miles are permitted even in the absence of "mapped" routes.

Easements are unlikely to have any relevance here; it's just a question of an oversight when setting the mapped routes across the Pennines. It certainly isn't the first example and it's unlikely to be the last.
 

507020

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Every pair of stations has a separate set of permitted routes; they aren't calculated recursively (I.e. just because Wigan to Huddersfield is valid via Manchester, that doesn't mean that it inherits all of the valid routes between Manchester and Huddersfield). Such a system would arguably make sense but it isn't how things work.

It's also worth noting that aside from anything else, for Wigan to Leeds, it may well be that the Calder Valley is within 3 miles of the shortest route - whereas for Wigan to Huddersfield, it's comparatively more of a detour (you go east of Huddersfield before heading back west) and I would be surprised if it's within 3 miles. Routes within 3 miles are permitted even in the absence of "mapped" routes.

Easements are unlikely to have any relevance here; it's just a question of an oversight when setting the mapped routes across the Pennines. It certainly isn't the first example and it's unlikely to be the last.
Having read a number of threads about these rules on here and being familiar with Northern services from Wigan to Yorkshire having used them almost exclusively to reach Yorkshire destinations, is it not the “direct train” rule, rather than the “3 mile” rule that takes precedence?

Monday - Saturday, Wigan Wallgate - Leeds services are routed via Atherton, the Calder Valley and the various West Yorkshire stations between Brighouse and Leeds, with journeys from Wigan, Hindley, Atherton etc all being valid this way due to the direct train rule. Connections at Hebden Bridge for Halifax, Bradford Interchange etc aren’t a problem as the Calder Valley remains the shortest route, but otherwise this would not be permitted due to the Huddersfield route being shorter and the fact that as you mention, permitted routes are not recursive, despite it being illogical for the journey suggested.

Traditional railway geography also plays a part, with Wigan’s location on the Lancashire and Yorkshire Main Line still bleeding through into current service patterns, often making the Calder Valley the faster option from Wigan and points west to Southport and Headbolt Lane. I recall attempting to buy a ticket from Southport to Batley which would have made use of the direct service from Wigan Wallgate to Batley, but as it is not direct from Southport, no itineraries were available. Trainsplit showed the only option being tickets split at Littleborough, with potential journeys via Huddersfield taking over an hour longer and requiring long waits at both Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield, compared to only a few minutes at Salford Crescent for the Calder Valley option.

I have also travelled to Halifax via Huddersfield and Brighouse, but never attempted to reach Huddersfield from Brighouse. Before this system of “any permitted route” was introduced, did passengers ever encounter such problems?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Every pair of stations has a separate set of permitted routes; they aren't calculated recursively (I.e. just because Wigan to Huddersfield is valid via Manchester, that doesn't mean that it inherits all of the valid routes between Manchester and Huddersfield). Such a system would arguably make sense but it isn't how things work.

It's also worth noting that aside from anything else, for Wigan to Leeds, it may well be that the Calder Valley is within 3 miles of the shortest route - whereas for Wigan to Huddersfield, it's comparatively more of a detour (you go east of Huddersfield before heading back west) and I would be surprised if it's within 3 miles. Routes within 3 miles are permitted even in the absence of "mapped" routes.

Easements are unlikely to have any relevance here; it's just a question of an oversight when setting the mapped routes across the Pennines. It certainly isn't the first example and it's unlikely to be the last.
I think you misunderstand me. I only mentioned Huddersfield as it's the blockade there that appears to be causing the issue. The journey under consideration is through to Leeds (for connections). And as mentioned in #5 NRE quite happily generates itineraries via the Calder Valley for various other starting points around Wigan.
 

yorkie

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Yes, for Sunday. And the affected journey involves Wigan-Leeds (for connections) meaning that travel via the Calder Valley is absolutely the optimum choice, as in up to 2 hours quicker (no express buses running) which applies right through the day, hence my puzzlement (I tried various start times from first thing to mid-afternoon). For some reason NRE wants Wigan passengers to all go via Huddersfield, involving 3 buses, but passengers from the likes of Bolton, Atherton, Hindley and even Gathurst are correctly routed via Rochdale. And it matters not whether using North Western, Wallgate or Wigan Stations as the origin. Utterly bizarre.
Can you provide an actual itinerary you have identified as being quicker than the itineraries provided, please?

I will then investigate accordingly.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Can you provide an actual itinerary you have identified as being quicker than the itineraries provided, please?

I will then investigate accordingly.

First of all a search now produces different results to those I obtained on Wednesday but they are still bizarre.
Request a journey on Sunday 7/4/24 from Wigan Wallgate to Leeds departing after 1000 and NRE comes up with journeys of 1003-1228 or 1024-1240 with no fares available for either so no journey details. No other options are generated.

Use the option to force the normal route via Huddersfield and you get: walk to North Western for the 1030 to Warrington BQ (arr1039/dep1105) arriving Manchester Piccadilly 1139. Then a 1200 bus to Huddersfield arriving 1300 for another bus at 1322 to Brighouse (arr 1337). From there it's a train at 1345 finally arriving at Leeds at 1410. This train starts from Manchester Victoria at 1257 ie after the time the supposedly non-allowable journeys would arrive in Leeds. It's a complete nonsense.

Of those banned journeys it's true that the earlier one is via Preston/Burnley so not valid on the usual ticket routeing of Not Liverpool/Preston but the second is the Calder Valley service ie 1025 from Chester, which departs Warrington BQ at 1046, so reachable from the 1030 departure from North Western(!), and leaves Manchester Victoria at 1120, a comfortable connection out of either the 1015 from Wallgate (0938 Southport-Blackburn) or the 1024 from North Western (Stalybridge service) for a Leeds arrival of 1240.

By comparison the previous results "allowed" only the Stalybridge routeing with buses forward changing at Marsden and Huddersfield and no mention of the Brighouse option. This would result in a Leeds arrival of 1448 for a journey time of 4h24 ie approximately two hours longer than necessary.

Further experimentation reveals that the issue can be overcome by specifying routeing via Salford Crescent which should not be necessary and would be unlikely to occur to ordinary members of the public.

As mentioned upthread no such issues starting from other stations not too far from Wigan and which would all have the same routeing permissions for the trans-Pennine leg (map MN). I also note that the routeing guide has received amendments dated 4/4/24; I haven't looked to see if these might be relevant or whether it's just a coincidence.
 
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