Another kick in the teeth for Westhoughton commuters

[Starmill]

I don't think you can really include the smattering of Open Access operated trains. Northallerton has got a better service these days with EC stopping once every two hours. Further up the line, though, Chester-le-Street lost a fair few services with the Eureka timetable. The only other smaller station on a main line that I can think of with a genuinely better service than ten years ago is Dronfield.

Stone lost its service for over four years due to the WCML upgrade, and the current service is not really much better than it was before closure. Norton Bridge, Polesworth and Barlaston now don't have any services. Even the bigger Trent Valley towns have lost their Intercity services, except in the peak.

Styal, Goostrey and Chelford

 

[Moonshot]

It is worth pointing out that 12 years ago, there were 18000 services a day UK wide...there are now 25000 daily. It is also worth pointing out that record numbers of passengers are now using the rail network. It is also worth pointing out that any holders of yearly season tickets between Westhoughton and Manchester will pay just £2.27 per single journey.

I have actually worked services through Westhoughton several times this week ( including the peak hours ). I have had no complaints from passengers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have actually worked services through Westhoughton several times this week ( including the peak hours ). I have had no complaints from passengers.

Would you think that the new timetable is seen to be adequate for the requirements of intending rail passengers to and from Westhoughton ?

 

[Techniquest]

So many points to reply to on this thread, and I'm adament I'm actually going to book Monday's trip after this one! Let's see then...

Styal does have a poor service agreed, but Goostrey and Chelford still have a much better service than Styal.

Polesworth DOES have a service, granted it's only one train from Rugby or Northampton to Crewe in the morning, weekdays only, but it's still a service. Pathetic service, that much I don't disagree with but it still counts.

Stone, well it has a better service than I was expecting before it re-opened. I don't recall quality trains of 4 carriages serving the station before it originally closed, or do I recall direct services to London. Or any First Class provision. So to say it's got worse there than it was pre-WCML upgrade is absolutely unfair.

The smaller WCML stations did suffer at the time, but things have been improved since. And I'm well glad Crewe has Euston to Liverpool services calling again off-peak, very much a plus! Just wanted to mention it.

As for the chap who queried 350/3s, no they're not in service yet. I'd not expect them to be out and about until December when the timetable change kicks in. Unless TPX do hire them for extra capacity during the Commonwealth Games, but not heard about that so doubt it'll happen.

Southport services, I have been on one of them in the evening peak out of Deansgate last year. Very well loaded all the way to Wigan, I certainly didn't get a seat until well after Bolton.

Finally, as for the Westhoughton situation, I would be less than pleased with the situation myself if I was commuting to/from there. Especially if there was no advance warning of it happening, which should have been the case surely?!

Think that'll do for now, no doubt by the time I get back online on Sunday there'll be 50 pages on this thread to read through...

 

[Moonshot]

Would you think that the new timetable is seen to be adequate for the requirements of intending rail passengers to and from Westhoughton ?

Yes - there are services roughly every 30 minutes throughout the day......the fact that one woman has gone to the press to complain that she cant get home at the time she has been used to so she can have tea and watch Coronation Street is irrelevant in the bigger picture. Its always the same at a timetable change - but if that very timetable change introduces a more efficient use of railway assets and a reduction in taxpayer subsidy, then that has to be the way forward.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Noting that there had been much residential development since the 1970's in the general Westhoughton area which were at that time always featured in the local area newspapers, would the fact that both Westhoughton and Daisy Hill railway stations serve the area in general be seen to be well placed to meet any demand. What frequency are the bus services that serve both these two railway stations in terms of onward connectional facilities ?

 

[Starmill]

Styal does have a poor service agreed, but Goostrey and Chelford still have a much better service than Styal.

Not actually the point I'm afraid. The point was this:

The positive is that intercity passengers get new trains that run faster. Everyone who uses the smaller stations loses out to accommodate it...

Faster and more of.

Polesworth DOES have a service, granted it's only one train from Rugby or Northampton to Crewe in the morning, weekdays only, but it's still a service. Pathetic service, that much I don't disagree with but it still counts.

If nobody uses it - and let's face it, it's unusable - is it still a service?

One for the philosophers.

 

[Moonshot]

May I make the observation that the 1638 ex. Manchester Victoria does call at Westhoughton (at 1735) on its return from Wigan North Western. Travelling on the 1646 ex Manchester Victoria (via Atherton) gives a 9 minute connection at Hindley.

In no way do I consider it satisfactory that there is a one hour gap in service, during peak travelling times, to any station within the environs of a major city.

The way in which the conflicting interests of different traffic flows are addressed by uncoordinated, and often competing, TOCs would not be tolerated in places such as Scotland, Wales, London and indeed most other parts of the country. The North-West is amongst a small number of areas where competition for track space is managed on a crude hierarchical basis to the detriment of passengers dependent on lower priority TOCs. Many traffic flows have been stifled since privatisation by poor access to paths, and an associated sense of make do and mend.

Usage of services to places like Westhoughton, and there are many more, will not flourish whilst significant gaps in service exist at prime traffic times. Unattractive timetables cannot be part of any long-term future for our railways.

The answer to that would be to have operators bid for access to scarce paths..............this is exactly what happens in the airline industry. What evidence do you have to suggest many traffic flows have been stifled bearing in mind that the network now carries its highest ever recorded numbers of passengers?

 

[northwichcat]

Yes - there are services roughly every 30 minutes throughout the day......the fact that one woman has gone to the press to complain that she cant get home at the time she has been used to so she can have tea and watch Coronation Street is irrelevant in the bigger picture. Its always the same at a timetable change - but if that very timetable change introduces a more efficient use of railway assets and a reduction in taxpayer subsidy, then that has to be the way forward.

The article refers to other commuters having to ask their employer to change their working hours but her employer won't let her do that. Just because one person has spoken to the media doesn't mean only one person is affected, not everyone wants to speak to the media.

I think saying it's just so she can have tea before watching Coronation Street is just the same as saying the train now misses out Westhoughton so the guard can get home earlier and have tea before watching Coronation Street, there's no mention of her having any remote interest in Coronation Street! Maybe she's paying for child care and now has to pay extra? That was a moan some people made when a South TPE service stopped calling at Chinley and he 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove was extended to Chinley in lieu.

 

[Moonshot]

The article refers to other commuters having to ask their employer to change their working hours but her employer won't let her do that. Just because one person has spoken to the media doesn't mean only one person is affected, not everyone wants to speak to the media.

I think saying it's just so she can have tea before watching Coronation Street is just the same as saying the train now misses out Westhoughton so the guard can get home earlier and have tea before watching Coronation Street, there's no mention of her having any remote interest in Coronation Street! Maybe she's paying for child care and now has to pay extra? That was a moan some people made when a South TPE service stopped calling at Chinley and he 17:23 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove was extended to Chinley in lieu.

I ve not even bothered reading the article......because as I stated , every timetable change attracts moaners because the new one doesnt suit there travel time home. Well thats tough........and I can also assure you that the guard who worked that particular service would not be home in time for Coronation Street. There have been numerous timetable changes in the last 12 years, which have co incided with 5% year on year growth of passenger numbers in every year of those 12. There are also a lot more services running - these are facts.

 

[SeanG]

Noting that there had been much residential development since the 1970's in the general Westhoughton area which were at that time always featured in the local area newspapers, would the fact that both Westhoughton and Daisy Hill railway stations serve the area in general be seen to be well placed to meet any demand. What frequency are the bus services that serve both these two railway stations in terms of onward connectional facilities ?

The busses which pass Daisy Hill are the 540 (every 10 minutes) Wigan - Bolton
615 (every 30 mins) Horwich - Leigh

The only Bus to pass Westhoughton is the aforementioned 615.

Interestingly, the 615 also serves Horwich Parkway station, a station which is used by a lot of Westhoughton residents.

The 715 bus also runs from Wigan- Westhoughton- Bolton, but via a different route, serving Lostock station, which is also used by a fair few Westhoughton residents

 

[Techniquest]

Not actually the point I'm afraid.

Fair enough, in my defence it was incredibly late when I had posted on this thread previously so didn't fully grasp the point.

I do recall Poynton having been a victim of losing peak time calls, to make way for the 3rd Virgin service per hour. However, when I last looked at the timetable for that area, admittedly not in massive detail, I saw no such thing. Unless I've missed something here, does this mean a smaller station saw a reduction in service and has regained it? If so, this could easily apply to Westhoughton in the winter timetable.

If nobody uses it - and let's face it, it's unusable - is it still a service?

One for the philosophers.

Forget the philosophers, it is a service. Admittedly an awful one which annoys me as I want to get the station marked off in my Baker. However is this not partly due to the awful location of Polesworth station compared to the location of Polesworth? I vaguely remember it's quite a bit of distance (3 miles?) from the station to Polesworth, hardly worth having really! Memory suggests that the road to the station isn't brilliant, but that relies on my remembering the area on Google Maps so it could well be fine!

As for the comment from someone else regarding changing working hours to suit commuting, I'm likely to have this problem later this year if my bus services are cut back as expected. Which won't suit my bosses since there's only really a need for me and most of my fellow colleagues in the afternoons and evenings according to them. Very possible the woman in the media link has similar problems of trying to change work times, not as easy as people make it sound!

 

[northwichcat]

I ve not even bothered reading the article......because as I stated , every timetable change attracts moaners because the new one doesnt suit there travel time home. Well thats tough........and I can also assure you that the guard who worked that particular service would not be home in time for Coronation Street. There have been numerous timetable changes in the last 12 years, which have co incided with 5% year on year growth of passenger numbers in every year of those 12. There are also a lot more services running - these are facts.

I think it's great that there's now an hourly service between Manchester and Scotland and the number of fast services between Manchester and Liverpool and between Manchester and Leeds are increasing. However, it's not acceptable for stations with growing passenger numbers to get their service cut back, re-timed services from a particular station are fine - some people will benefit, while others will lose out, but less services from a particular station doesn't benefit any user of that station. In the case of Westhoughton it sounds like possibly a new loop is required so that fast trains can overtake slow trains without needing to remove calls from the slow trains.

 

[edwin_m]

In the case of Westhoughton it sounds like possibly a new loop is required so that fast trains can overtake slow trains without needing to remove calls from the slow trains.

That would have two consequences, neither of them particularly good for passengers:

- The slow train would have to wait about 7min in the loop for the fast train to pass and maintain headways before and after it. This wait might be combined with a station stop but even so is an unacceptable penalty when people's journeys are typically only 30-40min anyway.

- Most people using the stations beyond the overtaking place would know that the later train gets arrives first and would therefore use that one. The earlier train would make very little contribution to reducing overcrowding at those stations.

 

[Moonshot]

I think it's great that there's now an hourly service between Manchester and Scotland and the number of fast services between Manchester and Liverpool and between Manchester and Leeds are increasing. However, it's not acceptable for stations with growing passenger numbers to get their service cut back, re-timed services from a particular station are fine - some people will benefit, while others will lose out, but less services from a particular station doesn't benefit any user of that station. In the case of Westhoughton it sounds like possibly a new loop is required so that fast trains can overtake slow trains without needing to remove calls from the slow trains.

What is really required in the case of the Greater Manchester travel to work area is expansion of Metrolink and a closure of rail stations where a tram service is provided. The Atherton line would be a prime candidate for this for starters.

 

[northwichcat]

What is really required in the case of the Greater Manchester travel to work area is expansion of Metrolink and a closure of rail stations where a tram service is provided. The Atherton line would be a prime candidate for this for starters.

Well TfGM have realised they can't convert the Atherton line and the only option for Metrolink on that line is tram-train operation. The cost they envisage for that on the Atherton line is £280m based on 10tph to Walkden and 5tph to Wigan (P10 http://www.agma.gov.uk/cms_media/files/capital_projects_and_policy_agenda_papers_8_11_13.pdf) Consequently, they have dismissed the tram-train option as low value for money and are looking at alternative options, which include an enhanced heavy rail service on the Atherton line and conversion of the Leigh guided busway (currently being built) to Metrolink.

TfGM's priority is the Rose Hill Marple route (which would also be tram-train) but they can't progress with that until the Rotherham-Sheffield tram-train trial has been undertaken. They're also looking at the option of switching the Altrincham line to tram-trains at the same time to relieve the Navigation Road bottleneck. If that goes ahead it would likely mean an Altrincham-Rose Hill Marple tram-train every 12 minutes and an Altrincham-Piccadilly tram-train every 12 minutes with no direct Victoria/Bury trams from Altrincham.

Another option considered was tram-trains to Glossop, which TfGM see as a potential phase 2 scheme. Extensions of the East Didsbury services to Hazel Grove using tram-trains and Altrincham services to Hale/Knutsford were dismissed, as was a tram-train between Altrincham and Stockport with new stops at Baguley and Cheadle.

The £280m investment required for Metrolink running on the Atherton line would be more than what would be needed to replace all Northern's 142s with an updated version of the 172. I think if you're going to spend that level of investment 80 new trains for use across the North would go down better than tram-trains and a more frequent service on a single line.

 

[edwin_m]

In the rather unlikely event that the "Atherton line tram-train conversion" did go ahead, it would be most likely to be done by conversion of the Atherton line to pure Metrolink with shared use of the same track only between Crow Nest and Wigan. Since there are two other routes between Manchester and Wigan there is no diversionary reason to retain heavy rail operation via Atherton, and to do so would involve a major spend on providing a junction at the Salford end plus various lesser costs along the route.

How would they convert the Leigh busway to Metrolink without either similarly converting the Atherton line and linking the two, or doing something even more expensive to provide a new tram route between Ellenbrook and central Manchester?

 

[northwichcat]

Since there are two other routes between Manchester and Wigan there is no diversionary reason to retain heavy rail operation via Atherton, and to do so would involve a major spend on providing a junction at the Salford end plus various lesser costs along the route.

Well there's been some suggestions that once Bolton-Wigan is electrified that Southport-Atherton-Victoria will go half-hourly, with Kirkby getting a shuttle service to/from Wigan. Presumably if that goes ahead the Wigan-Bolton-Airport part of the Southport-Airport service will remain as is but as an electric service.

There are also some freight operations on the Atherton line.

How would they convert the Leigh busway to Metrolink without either similarly converting the Atherton line and linking the two, or doing something even more expensive to provide a new tram route between Ellenbrook and central Manchester?

It's an option they are looking in to rather than an option they are proposing to undertake so they may find it's too expensive also. Maybe they would look at running Metrolink along the A579 as a cheap way of getting between Leigh and Atherton, given running it along the A57 is how they got it between Salford Quays and Eccles.

Note that Metrolink looked in to running to Glossop in lieu of Altrincham as a plan B for Metrolink phase 1 yet 25 years later Glossop remains part of the heavy rail network.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The article refers to other commuters having to ask their employer to change their working hours but her employer won't let her do that. Just because one person has spoken to the media doesn't mean only one person is affected, not everyone wants to speak to the media.

Quite. Passengers won't complain to guards about timetable changes, at least not in any numbers; it's not as though the guard can do anything about it.

There are always winners and losers in any timetable change, and where people can see a genuine reason for the change they're generally OK with it. In this case, they can't; the train still runs at the same time it always has, it just no longer stops where it used to stop. Passengers in the north east were simiarly upset when Eureka took away the southbound morning peak train at Chester le Street.

 

[Starmill]

Well there's been some suggestions that once Bolton-Wigan is electrified that Southport-Atherton-Victoria will go half-hourly, with Kirkby getting a shuttle service to/from Wigan.

I wonder if that might allow an evening or Sunday service to and from Pemberton, Orrell, Upholland and Rainford? At present they seem to get an exceptionally poor deal re last train home from Manchester and first arrival in the morning (if you work 9-5, you are on those first and last trains and have no choice).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Evening trains were stopped in the 1980s because they were unsafe I believe (as in undesirable passengers etc).

 

[edwin_m]

Well there's been some suggestions that once Bolton-Wigan is electrified that Southport-Atherton-Victoria will go half-hourly, with Kirkby getting a shuttle service to/from Wigan. Presumably if that goes ahead the Wigan-Bolton-Airport part of the Southport-Airport service will remain as is but as an electric service.

That's a sensible way to minimize DMU use, but if there ever became a convincing case to convert the Atherton route to Metrolink then it would not be a reason to prevent it. However Atherton line Metrolink is probably remote enough that if it ever happens Southport electrification will have happened first.

It's an option they are looking in to rather than an option they are proposing to undertake so they may find it's too expensive also. Maybe they would look at running Metrolink along the A579 as a cheap way of getting between Leigh and Atherton, given running it along the A57 is how they got it between Salford Quays and Eccles.

If the intention was to convert the Atherton line to tram-train and build a branch down the busway, then there's a very tempting disused colliery railway from Walkden down to Ellenbrook. However if the Atherton line remained heavy rail it would need a huge new length of tramway to link the busway to the rest of Metrolink, even to Eccles where the journey into Manchester would be too slow to be competitive anyway.

There are also some freight operations on the Atherton line.

According to the current Working Timetable there are a couple of light engines that run as required, which are probably just there to maintain route knowledge. Given the large number of east-west routes compared to the tiny number of east-west freight trains I don't see this as a reason to retain it as a heavy rail route.

 

[northwichcat]

If the intention was to convert the Atherton line to tram-train and build a branch down the busway, then there's a very tempting disused colliery railway from Walkden down to Ellenbrook. However if the Atherton line remained heavy rail it would need a huge new length of tramway to link the busway to the rest of Metrolink, even to Eccles where the journey into Manchester would be too slow to be competitive anyway.

Having Metrolink serving a town doesn't mean the heavy rail has to go - Rochdale, Eccles and East Didsbury have both and the less frequent heavy rail service is faster. TfGM also have looked at tram-trains running to Hazel Grove from East Didsbury, which would be a considerably slower way of getting from Hazel Grove to Manchester than using Northern.

 

[edwin_m]

Having Metrolink serving a town doesn't mean the heavy rail has to go - Rochdale, Eccles and East Didsbury have both and the less frequent heavy rail service is faster. TfGM also have looked at tram-trains running to Hazel Grove from East Didsbury, which would be a considerably slower way of getting from Hazel Grove to Manchester than using Northern.

I agree, but the question remains unanswered of how Metrolink could take over the Leigh busway except by conversion of the Atherton line.

 

[1D53]

Evening trains were stopped in the 1980s because they were unsafe I believe (as in undesirable passengers etc).

They still are. More than enough times the last train has been bricked enroute.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Casting my thoughts back to that 1980's period, was there a considerable use of the "Q" trains on the Atherton line in an attempt to put a check upon such anti-social behaviour and I recall mention being made of graffiti decrying the use of these "Q" trains being applied on certain overbridges by those with more spray cans than brain cells.

 

[WatcherZero]

The Atherton line tram-train plan thats been mooted is some kind of third city centre crossing between Man Pic and Salford Crescent running east-west rather than North-South, continue on the Atherton line to Atherton station providing 10tph frequency, then a brand new alignment (on road through the centre of Atherton, Bolton Rd, Mealhouse Lane to Wigan Rd, then one of two options, either segregated running south of Hindley on the disused rail alignment, Ince, Westwood Park, Wigan Wallgate, or on road Atherton Road, Wigan Rd, Manchester Rd, Darlington Rd, Wallgate) both potential routes offering 5tph frequency.

 

[edwin_m]

The Atherton line tram-train plan thats been mooted is some kind of third city centre crossing between Man Pic and Salford Crescent running east-west rather than North-South, continue on the Atherton line to Atherton station providing 10tph frequency, then a brand new alignment (on road through the centre of Atherton, Bolton Rd, Mealhouse Lane to Wigan Rd, then one of two options, either segregated running south of Hindley on the disused rail alignment, Ince, Westwood Park, Wigan Wallgate, or on road Atherton Road, Wigan Rd, Manchester Rd, Darlington Rd, Wallgate) both potential routes offering 5tph frequency.

Who's mooting that one? It's certainly not the one looked at for the TfGM tram-train strategy.

 

[Beveridges]

There are also some freight operations on the Atherton line

The only freight trains on the Atherton line are the MPV's used on the RHTT trains in Leaf fall.

The last 'proper' freight train to use the line was diverted GBRF Gypsum services way back in 2008, and even that was only for two weeks.

Other than that, the only other freight trains are irregular engineers trains to do work on the line, and odd test trains (both of which every railway line in the country gets anyway!)

According to the current Working Timetable there are a couple of light engines that run as required

They aren't even light engine paths, they are MPV's for the RHTT's! Obviously they are cancelled every day until leaf fall starts.

Casting my thoughts back to that 1980's period, was there a considerable use of the "Q" trains on the Atherton line in an attempt to put a check upon such anti-social behaviour and I recall mention being made of graffiti decrying the use of these "Q" trains being applied on certain overbridges by those with more spray cans than brain cells.

There are some rough bad places on the Atherton line!

As if the locations at either end weren't bad enough (Manchester and Wigan), you've got Moorside, Walkden, Hag Fold and Ince as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are set to add Westhoughton as a calling point in to a re-timed service in October.