Another kick in the teeth for Westhoughton commuters

[Howardh]

Westhoughton is a large commuter base with over 20,000 residents (and is growing) on the outskirts of Manchester.

Read on...
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...hton_loses_rush_hour_train_service/?ref=var_0

Anger as Westhoughton loses rush hour train service

A PEAK time commuter train will no longer call at one of Bolton’s busiest stations.

The 1638 Northern Rail service from Manchester Victoria to Wigan no longer stops at Westhoughton.

Bosses say the move is because changes to the timetable mean there is no time for the stop if trains are to make a connection at Wigan.

It has left the town with no Manchester service for an hour in the middle of rush-hour.

Westhoughton is the only station removed from the amended service’s route, which means some holders of a £906-per-year season pass are now forced to return home an hour later.

Furious commuters have slammed rail bosses for the move.

Caroline Mangnell said she is now faced with an hour-wait in Manchester or a long walk home from Daisy Hill station...

..

 

[tbtc]

Another?

Apart from having the newest trains in the UK, the newest station in the UK (I can't think of anything newer than Buckshaw Parkway - am happy to be corrected of course), yet there's always some moans about how bad things are.

This reporting from the Bolton News is terrible:

"Caroline Mangnell said she is now faced with an hour-wait in Manchester...she must wait an hour to catch a service"

...yet we are told that she can't get to the 16:28 ex Deansgate (which is the 16:34 ex Salford), which means that surely the wait for the 17:28 ex Deansgate (which is the 17:33 ex Salford) is under an hour?

The extra time isn't an hour, it's the time between the 17:17 ex Salford (the 17:10 ex Victoria) to the 17:33 - which is only sixteen minutes. So, the actual delay is only around a quarter of the time that the Bolton News suggests.

(No mention of the fact that Westhoughton will see EMUs in the next few years either, though I'm probably expecting too much of local news)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apart from having the newest trains in the UK, the newest station in the UK (I can't think of anything newer than Buckshaw Parkway - am happy to be corrected of course)

Ok, I'll bite. James Cook University Hospital Station in Middlesbrough is now the newest station in the UK (and LM's 350/3s marginally newer than TPE's 350/4s, of course).

 

[SeanG]

Of course it is impossible to travel to Daisy Hill instead... (Yes it is possible on a Manchester - Westhoughton ticket with a quick look at the routing guide, not that guards ever question it)

 

[edwin_m]

Apart from having the newest trains in the UK

If we're referring to 350/4s, they don't stop at Westhoughton or anywhere else in the Bolton area.

 

[thealexweb]

Transpennine has one daily service which passes through Westhoughton but it is run with a Class 185.

 

[Starmill]

Another?

Apart from having the newest trains in the UK, the newest station in the UK (I can't think of anything newer than Buckshaw Parkway - am happy to be corrected of course), yet there's always some moans about how bad things are.

I'm sorry but this is a tad irrelevant. Nothing vaguely 'new' serves Westhoughton and Bucksaw Parkway serves Chorley, not Bolton. Conon Bridge and Energlyn & Churchill Park as well as James Cook have also opened since Buckshaw Parkway too...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Westhoughton is the only settlement between Lostock and Hindley to be possessed of a railway station.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Westhoughton is a large commuter base with over 20,000 residents (and is growing) on the outskirts of Manchester.

Read on...
http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...hton_loses_rush_hour_train_service/?ref=var_0

I note the statement made concerning the need of making a connection at Wigan, but this totally ignores those rail travellers who will be travelling from Manchester to Westhoughton as their actual travelling journey, to whom any mention of a Wigan connection is totally irrelevant.

 

[Starmill]

I note the statement made concerning the need of making a connection at Wigan, but this totally ignores those rail travellers who will be travelling from Manchester to Westhoughton as their actual travelling journey, to whom any mention of a Wigan connection is totally irrelevant.

Hmm, it would appear that if one does not wish to go via Bolton, one would be best advised to take a Wigan via Atherton train and change at Hindley, is this what you mean?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Hmm, it would appear that if one does not wish to go via Bolton, one would be best advised to take a Wigan via Atherton train and change at Hindley, is this what you mean?

Not so. I was referring to a service than runs Manchester - Bolton -Westhoughton which would be the best way for rail travellers who travel between Manchester and Westhoughton only.

 

[northwichcat]

This reporting from the Bolton News is terrible:

"Caroline Mangnell said she is now faced with an hour-wait in Manchester...she must wait an hour to catch a service"

...yet we are told that she can't get to the 16:28 ex Deansgate (which is the 16:34 ex Salford), which means that surely the wait for the 17:28 ex Deansgate (which is the 17:33 ex Salford) is under an hour?

The extra time isn't an hour, it's the time between the 17:17 ex Salford (the 17:10 ex Victoria) to the 17:33 - which is only sixteen minutes. So, the actual delay is only around a quarter of the time that the Bolton News suggests.

If your journey was previously involved using the 16:38 Victoria-Westhoughton service and you can't catch the 16:28 Deansgate--Westhoughton service then you've got a 50 minute wait until the 17:28 Deansgate--Westhoughton.

 

[dannypye9999]

She will have to make a quick dash to nearby Deansgate for the 16:28 or spend an hour waiting at Man Victoria. If she makes the dash to Deansgate she might just be in time for the 1628 should it ever be delayed, its worth a try.

 

[tbtc]

Ok, I'll bite. James Cook University Hospital Station in Middlesbrough is now the newest station in the UK (and LM's 350/3s marginally newer than TPE's 350/4s, of course).

Always happy to be corrected (tbh didn't realise that the 350/3s were in service yet - they haven't attracted the same amount of attention as the TPE 350/4s)

If we're referring to 350/4s, they don't stop at Westhoughton or anywhere else in the Bolton area.

I'm sorry but this is a tad irrelevant. Nothing vaguely 'new' serves Westhoughton and Bucksaw Parkway serves Chorley, not Bolton. Conon Bridge and Energlyn & Churchill Park as well as James Cook have also opened since Buckshaw Parkway too...

When the thread was created by Howardh (and when I commented on it) it had the title "Another kick in the teeth for NW commuters" - i.e. another thread about how hard done by the north west of England is - which is why I pointed out a couple of good news stories as a counterbalance (new station, new trains - which is more than some places have got).

It's since been (sensibly) amended by the Mods to "Another kick in the teeth for Westhoughton commuters" - which means that my comment about recent improvements in north west England looks out of context (as they don't directly involve Westhoughton - though at least they have electrification to look forward to in a few years, which should improve capacity on the line from Bolton to Wigan).

I'm well aware of the fact that 350s don't serve Westhoughton and that Buckshaw is some distance away, but this thread wasn't specific to Westhoughton when it was set up.

If your journey was previously involved using the 16:38 Victoria-Westhoughton service and you can't catch the 16:28 Deansgate--Westhoughton service then you've got a 50 minute wait until the 17:28 Deansgate--Westhoughton.

That's still less than the "one hour wait" that the website suggested (I'd guess that there are busier stations in the Manchester "travel to work" area that only have an hourly service at rush hour)

 

[Beveridges]

It's always going to be the case with timetable amendments!! Some people benefit, others get shafted big style!!!



B.T.W. Using Daisy Hill as an alternative is a ball ache as it's on a slow stopping route not to mention the long walk.

 

[Starmill]

Always happy to be corrected (tbh didn't realise that the 350/3s were in service yet - they haven't attracted the same amount of attention as the TPE 350/4s)

They're in service!?

 

[Darren R]

I am slightly hesitant in joining in a thread which has all the potential to become an in-depth debate about one specific individual's journey home from work, but anyway......

Firstly, the Bolton News article is badly written. [Surely not? - Ed] The timetable change is nothing to do with onward connections at Wigan North Western, despite what the reporter says. This, from further down the article (my bold):

Northern Rail bosses said the change was unavoidable.

A spokesman said: “The service doesn't call at Westhoughton in the new timetable as the train working this service now needs to get to Wigan in time to form an earlier service back to Manchester, and so is limited in the stops it can make.

Upon arrival at Wigan North Western at 1719, the train in question forms a return service to Victoria at 1725. An extra stop at Westhoughton would add two minutes to the outward journey, reducing turnaround time to just four minutes. Not only is this pushing it a bit, but probably less than permitted by the timetable planning rules.

Under the old timetable there were departures for Westhoughton at 1626 from Oxford Road, 1636 from Victoria, 1726 from Oxford Road, and 1736 from Victoria. From last week that is now 1626 from Oxford Road, 1726 from Oxford Road, and 1810 from Victoria.

Regarding the specific passenger quoted in the article, we don't know where exactly she lives nor where exactly she works. It is therefore somewhat pointless speculating along the lines of 'why doesn't she catch the train from xxxx station' or 'why doesn't she get off at xxxx station.' She implies the alternatives are not practicable (for whatever reasons), and we have to accept that. Reading between the lines she works close to Victoria, and used to be able to catch the 1636 departure. However, since the TT change this is now 1638 - unable to use its former path since there is now a 1635 Victoria to Clitheroe service (through from Todmorden.) It no longer calls at Westhoughton and now runs into North Western, whereas previously it ran to Wallgate and had a longer layover.

Whether it would be possible to retime its return to Man Vic to make it a couple of minutes later (thereby permitting the reinstatement of the Westhoughton call outward) I couldn't say - but looking how busy the Bolton corridor is at that time, I'm guessing not (at least not without retiming other trains.)

Given that the passenger is facing a situation whereby the only train affected is the one whe used to catch, and the only station affected is the one she wants, I think most of us would feel a little disgruntled in those circumstances!

 

[northwichcat]

That's still less than the "one hour wait" that the website suggested

It is but it's much closer to an hour than you were suggesting earlier on.

(I'd guess that there are busier stations in the Manchester "travel to work" area that only have an hourly service at rush hour)

I could suggest my own local station - KNF annual usage 454,000 while WHG's annual usage is 210,372.

Pre-09:30, the direct trains to MAN from KNF are 06:45, 07:43, 08:42. Leaving MAN for KNF between 16:00 and 18:30 the direct trains are 16:17, 17:09, 18:17. There are some trains to/from Stockport only but using these to get to/from Manchester can take much longer e.g. the 07:43 departure from KNF has an arrival time in MAN of 08:30, but the 07:11 departure for Stockport only will only get you to MAN at 08:21 (unless you allow under the official 5 minutes for a connection at Stockport.)

However, I think that puts forward a case for improving Mid-Cheshire services more than cutting back Westhoughton services.

It's since been (sensibly) amended by the Mods to "Another kick in the teeth for Westhoughton commuters" - which means that my comment about recent improvements in north west England looks out of context (as they don't directly involve Westhoughton - though at least they have electrification to look forward to in a few years, which should improve capacity on the line from Bolton to Wigan).

If we just look at commuting options where exactly have improvements been made in recent year and which lines have lost out.

Improvements I can think of which affect peak time commuters:
* More and faster Liverpool-Manchester trains.
* More and faster Leeds/Huddersfield-Manchester trains.
* More and faster Preston/Wigan-Manchester trains. Although, the 17:00 Manchester Airport-Glasgow service does not call at Wigan.
* More Wilmslow/Stockport-Manchester services following the 2008 WCML changes.
* More Stalybridge-Manchester trains.

Cut-backs I can think of which affect peak time commuters:
* Preston-Bolton-Manchester following TPE changes.
* Mid-Cheshire line to Manchester following the 2008 WCML changes.
* Preston/Wigan/Warrington-Crewe going from half-hourly to hourly following the 2008 WCML changes.
* Other recent smaller changes like the service mentioned missing out Westhoughton and the other change recently reported affecting Orrell
* Previous smaller changes like a peak time Crewe-Manchester stopper going and a peak time extra between Irlam and Manchester Oxford Rd going.

 

[Moonshot]

As always, media zeroes in on a supposed negative aspect of the railway without counterbalancing with the positives. Not so long back there were a whole host of complaints about TPE Bolton corridor services being reduced, but of course this was in reaction to moving services to operate through Wigan North West to take advantage of both new rolling stock and electrified infrastructure. I happened to make that journey yesterday......it is brilliant and already well used.

 

[northwichcat]

Not so long back there were a whole host of complaints about TPE Bolton corridor services being reduced, but of course this was in reaction to moving services to operate through Wigan North West to take advantage of both new rolling stock and electrified infrastructure. I happened to make that journey yesterday......it is brilliant and already well used.

One thing to note regarding that if the Wigan-Manchester/Airport passengers have moved from the Southport-Airport service to the Scotland-Airport service then it should generally mean more seats for Bolton passengers on the Southport-Airport services.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As always, media zeroes in on a supposed negative aspect of the railway without counterbalancing with the positives.

If you live in Westhoughton there are no counterbalancing positives. Especially as the 1726 is likely to be even more overcrowded than it is now, with all the passengers from the 1638 on it as well. Electrification might be a positive, though it's strange how the Government aren't pointing out that the "new trains" are, in fact, 26 years old.

The positive is that intercity passengers get new trains that run faster. Everyone who uses the smaller stations loses out to accommodate it, sometimes pretty dramatically (e.g. in the Trent Valley). It's always the way with "improvements" in this country.

 

[northwichcat]

The positive is that intercity passengers get new trains that run faster.

Well pre-December 2007 the Manchester-Scotland services were operated by Voyagers timed for up to 110mph running. Now they're timed for 100mph running.

Everyone who uses the smaller stations

I think 'everyone' is an exaggeration given some stations outside large towns and cities have got new or enhanced long distance services - Wilmslow (more Virgin services), Wrexham (new Virgin service) Stone (reinstated service), Liverpool South Parkway (gained TPE, EMT and LM services), Hartlepool, Eaglescliffe, Northallerton, Thirsk, Halifax, Brighouse, Mirfield and Pontefract (all gained services as a result of Grand Central's operations.) Probably others in other areas as well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think you can really include the smattering of Open Access operated trains. Northallerton has got a better service these days with EC stopping once every two hours. Further up the line, though, Chester-le-Street lost a fair few services with the Eureka timetable. The only other smaller station on a main line that I can think of with a genuinely better service than ten years ago is Dronfield.

Stone lost its service for over four years due to the WCML upgrade, and the current service is not really much better than it was before closure. Norton Bridge, Polesworth and Barlaston now don't have any services. Even the bigger Trent Valley towns have lost their Intercity services, except in the peak.

 

[backontrack]

Another?

Apart from having the newest trains in the UK, the newest station in the UK (I can't think of anything newer than Buckshaw Parkway - am happy to be corrected of course), yet there's always some moans about how bad things are.

Conon Bridge, Stratford-upon-Avon Parkway, Energlyn & Churchill Park, and James Cook University Hospital are all newer, plus numerous Metrolink stations

 

[northwichcat]

plus numerous Metrolink stations

Well Metrolink refer to all places their trams stop at as stops not stations so the only 'Metrolink stations' would be where they stop at a National Rail operated station like Altrincham and Victoria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well Metrolink refer to all places their trams stop at as stops not stations so the only 'Metrolink stations' would be where they stop at a National Rail operated station like Altrincham and Victoria.

.....and Navigation Road and Manchester Piccadilly...

 

[thealexweb]

One thing to note regarding that if the Wigan-Manchester/Airport passengers have moved from the Southport-Airport service to the Scotland-Airport service then it should generally mean more seats for Bolton passengers on the Southport-Airport services.

This aim is being hampered by not all TPE services calling at Wigan North Western and Manchester Oxford Road, all passing services should halt at these stations.

Also I object to the term more seats, more standing room is more appropriate. Its not realistic that any Bolton bound service leaving Manchester Piccadilly will have any spare seats available.

 

[northwichcat]

This aim is being hampered by not all TPE services calling at Wigan North Western and Manchester Oxford Road, all passing services should halt at these stations.

TPE did at least retain a Manchester-Windermere service through Bolton with similar timings to the former 17:00 Manchester Airport-Scotland/Barrow via Bolton service. Although, they can only start it from Manchester Oxford Rd due to the lack of a path through Piccadilly at that time.

Also I object to the term more seats, more standing room is more appropriate. Its not realistic that any Bolton bound service leaving Manchester Piccadilly will have any spare seats available.

Well I've seen Southport services at Deansgate with around 40-50 passengers on a 4 car train, so that's around 200 empty seats. OK it might not happen with the 17:28 Southport departure from Deansgate but implying all Bolton bound trains have all seats occupied is incorrect.

 

[thealexweb]

TPE did at least retain a Manchester-Windermere service through Bolton with similar timings to the former 17:00 Manchester Airport-Scotland/Barrow via Bolton service. Although, they can only start it from Manchester Oxford Rd due to the lack of a path through Piccadilly at that time.



Well I've seen Southport services at Deansgate with around 40-50 passengers on a 4 car train, so that's around 200 empty seats. OK it might not happen with the 17:28 Southport departure from Deansgate but implying all Bolton bound trains have all seats occupied is incorrect.

Was that on a Sunday / late evening? Most times when returning from Manchester on a Monday to Saturday afternoon its not uncommon to have to let one or two trains go before I feel I can get on.

 

[northwichcat]

Was that on a Sunday / late evening? Most times when returning from Manchester on a Monday to Saturday afternoon its not uncommon to have to let one or two trains go before I feel I can get on.

No. At around 14:30 on a weekday last summer just before the school summer holidays. I was on a Southport-Airport operated by a 2 car 142 which had a healthy loading but not high enough for anyone to need to stand. When it reached Deansgate there was a 4 car 142 with Southport on the destination display which had around 40-50 on the front train and no-one on the rear train - perhaps the guard had thought there's no need to open it with such a light loading.

I know Sunday's can have unbalanced capacity with alternate services running through to Chester, so an event like the RHS Tatton Show can mean Southport services gets strengthened when they don't need to be.

 

[Philip C]

May I make the observation that the 1638 ex. Manchester Victoria does call at Westhoughton (at 1735) on its return from Wigan North Western. Travelling on the 1646 ex Manchester Victoria (via Atherton) gives a 9 minute connection at Hindley.

In no way do I consider it satisfactory that there is a one hour gap in service, during peak travelling times, to any station within the environs of a major city.

The way in which the conflicting interests of different traffic flows are addressed by uncoordinated, and often competing, TOCs would not be tolerated in places such as Scotland, Wales, London and indeed most other parts of the country. The North-West is amongst a small number of areas where competition for track space is managed on a crude hierarchical basis to the detriment of passengers dependent on lower priority TOCs. Many traffic flows have been stifled since privatisation by poor access to paths, and an associated sense of make do and mend.

Usage of services to places like Westhoughton, and there are many more, will not flourish whilst significant gaps in service exist at prime traffic times. Unattractive timetables cannot be part of any long-term future for our railways.