Another fantastic day with Avanti

[Clarence Yard]

I would hope that the contract also allows for penalties to be paid for not meeting performance targets. So for 2022 I would suggest that at least £6.5 million would be the minimum penalty charge to be made against Avanti and probably double or triple that would be fair for the atrocious service provided for most of 2022.

No they don’t - it’s a one way transaction. The fees are only paid from the DfT to the TOC. In an NRC you get a base fee and a performance fee.

There are differences between the EMA/ERMA arrangements and the ones in the NRC but they are all “contract” performance fees, not purely “train running” performance fees. There are several elements to the performance fee in each one of those arrangements, one important one being financial (cost) performance.

So it is perfectly possible for Avanti to get performance fees for 2022 without being any good with their train performance. That’s the perversity of the regimes the DfT set up and contracted with their TOCs.

 

[D6130]

So it is perfectly possible for Avanti to get performance fees for 2022 without being any good with their train performance. That’s the perversity of the regimes the DfT set up and contracted with their TOCs.

Ye gods! No wonder that there's no incentive for TOCs to perform at all....let alone perform well!

 

[peter166]

No they don’t - it’s a one way transaction. The fees are only paid from the DfT to the TOC. In an NRC you get a base fee and a performance fee.

There are differences between the EMA/ERMA arrangements and the ones in the NRC but they are all “contract” performance fees, not purely “train running” performance fees. There are several elements to the performance fee in each one of those arrangements, one important one being financial (cost) performance.

So it is perfectly possible for Avanti to get performance fees for 2022 without being any good with their train performance. That’s the perversity of the regimes the DfT set up and contracted with their TOCs

Quite remarkable & completely bonkers.
Avanti laughing all the way to the bank with tax payers money

 

[Clarence Yard]

But also think about it from the point of the DfT. They can make decisions about recruitment, training and train services without getting too much hassle from the TOC concerned because a significant part of the “performance” fees relate to co-operation and doing what the DfT tell you.

You would never have got any private company interested in running a railway with the level of control that the DfT now exerts over TOCs without some level of guaranteed fees.

The question is, of course, is this system really value for money? Or does it just let DfT officials hide behind the results of some of their decisions since March 2020, some of which are now becoming apparent.

 

[Carlisle]

Quite remarkable & completely bonkers.

Not really, who’d sign a contract where if a dispute occurs & performance tanks you’ll get stung for £millions in penalties with virtually no freedom to vary operations, wages or conditions in attempt to remedy the situation?.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quite remarkable & completely bonkers.
Avanti laughing all the way to the bank with tax payers money

Arguably, it's the refund of a fraction of fare revenue paid by passengers, for performance delivered by Avanti (before the current issues).
How else would you suggest the contract works?
Avanti are not going to do it for free (and neither would OLR).

 

[philosopher]

Quite remarkable & completely bonkers.
Avanti laughing all the way to the bank with tax payers money

Avanti should hand back the money to the DfT.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Why should they? They have fulfilled their contract during that period to earn that level of fee. Private companies are not charities.

If you don’t like the system, lobby your MP to get it changed.

 

[Skiddaw]

Why should they? They have fulfilled their contract during that period to earn that level of fee. Private companies are not charities.

If you don’t like the system, lobby your MP to get it changed.

I already have.

To my mind, it's on a par with being (just about) within the letter of the law but (to my mind) clearly not within the spirit of the law. A bit like some of the Government Covid potential breaches. It sticks in the throat.

 

[peter166]

Why should they? They have fulfilled their contract during that period to earn that level of fee. Private companies are not charities.

If you don’t like the system, lobby your MP to get it changed.

Avanti should hand back the money to the DfT.

Totally agree. They are seen to be being rewarded for failure. To most passengers what matters is the abysmal service which has been provided over the last 9 months & which continues until today ! As a gesture of goodwill & recognition of the untold misery caused to passengers over most of 2022 they should repay the £6.5 million to the DfT.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They won’t - they are a quoted company. The shareholders would roast the directors if they tried to do that! The only reason these companies run these TOCs are for the fees. That’s what keeps the shareholders happy.

If they were entitled to the fee, as per the contract, they are entitled to keep it, whatever has happened since. You don’t penalise companies like that - you can’t confiscate payments due just because you feel like it.

If there is a hint that the payments were fraudulently obtained, that’s a different matter. But fraud is a big thing to allege, let alone prove.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Avanti have been experiencing numerous delays to their services leaving London Euston this afternoon/evening owing to multiple Pendolino failures so they're having to step up sets, causing delays.

 

[Jimini]

It's a veritable feast of cancellations and late running services tonight!

 

[londonmidland]

So what's causing all the Pendolino failures recently as historically they are quite a reliable train? Cut back on maintenance?

 

[BPN2022]

RMT strikes causing issues on maintanence cycles I wonder?

 

[voyagerdude220]

Also at least two northbound and one southbound train this evening are unable to call at Wigan/Lancaster/Oxenholme due to no despatch staff available because of the trains being severely delayed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what's causing all the Pendolino failures recently as historically they are quite a reliable train? Cut back on maintenance?

Probably snow and ice causing moisture to get where it shouldn't.

 

[footprints]

38 Avanti cancellations so far today, plus the usual terminating mid-route on many more.

 

[Some guy]

38 Avanti cancellations so far today, plus the usual terminating mid-route on many more.

As rubbish as Avanti are it’s all on the government now for first of all not stripping them of the contract and second of all when giving them an extension allow them to go into talks with the RMT and maybe it would’ve been resolved instead the government have shackled them like every other operator

 

[GoneSouth]

Also at least two northbound and one southbound train this evening are unable to call at Wigan/Lancaster/Oxenholme due to no despatch staff available because of the trains being severely delayed.

How can this be allowed to happen. It shows just how badly the railway in general is out of touch with customer service.

What happened to the passengers who were destined for these stations?

 

[172101]

Didn't that long to get back to 1 Manchester an hour (if that) again!
And the Government has awarded them a 6.5m performance bonus.
Even though this was based on data from the period before the disruption, they should have held it back as compensation to the public by heavily reducing the fares.
They are very good at taking self-assessment tax on account a year in advance so why not do the reverse for bad performance?

 

[800001]

Didn't that long to get back to 1 Manchester an hour (if that) again!
And the Government has awarded them a 6.5m performance bonus.
Even though this was based on data from the period before the disruption, they should have held it back as compensation to the public by heavily reducing the fares.
They are very good at taking self-assessment tax on account a year in advance so why not do the reverse for bad performance?

You can’t just hold back a performance bonus that Avanti are contractually and legally entitled to, first group lawyers would have a field day if that happened.

As much as it puts a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, they are entitled to it.

 

[43066]

Didn't that long to get back to 1 Manchester an hour (if that) again!
And the Government has awarded them a 6.5m performance bonus.
Even though this was based on data from the period before the disruption, they should have held it back as compensation to the public by heavily reducing the fares.
They are very good at taking self-assessment tax on account a year in advance so why not do the reverse for bad performance?

Because that isn’t how contract law or the tax system works.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

38 Avanti cancellations so far today, plus the usual terminating mid-route on many more.

So much for the vaunted 100 extra drivers which was suppose to minimise need for RDW and ot from December timetable change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So much for the vaunted 100 extra drivers which was suppose to minimise need for RDW and ot from December timetable change.

Time to go back to the 4tph timetable, then, and to be a bit more honest next time.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Time to go back to the 4tph timetable, then, and to be a bit more honest next time.

Maybe but since May 18 fiasco the industry is suppose to independently stress test operators timetables for deliverability to ensure these sort of situations don't happen so the industry has failed itself here.

 

[peter166]

You can’t just hold back a performance bonus that Avanti are contractually and legally entitled to, first group lawyers would have a field day if that happened.

As much as it puts a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, they are entitled to it.

Just get rid of Avanti/ First group from the railways pronto & take the cashcow (£6.5m plus any future bonuses) away from their shareholders

 

[Carlisle]

So much for the vaunted 100 extra drivers which was suppose to minimise need for RDW and ot from December timetable change.

Possibly a shortage of Train Managers or platform staff given the RMT overtime ban now in place.

 

[peter166]

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30+ cancellations today plus numerous journeys terminating/starting short. Whats happenened to the previously reliable service promised from 11Dec. Once again Avanti is failing miserably - a 3 hour gap from Liverpool with the cancellation of the 0843 & 0943

 

[zwk500]

Just get rid of Avanti/ First group from the railways pronto & take the cashcow (£6.5m plus any future bonuses) away from their shareholders

And with no management who runs the services?