Another expired railcard (potential) prosecution

[fortbaxter]

My daughter (22) had foolishly let her railcard expire (in October - I know, I know) without realising and was today stopped by an inspector in Birmingham after taking a journey from Wylde Green. He wouldn't let her pay the fare difference (about £1.40) and/or a penalty fare and instead took her details and said TIL would be in touch. It was an Avanti train.

Although it was an innocent mistake, it's a fair cop. Hopefully she'll be offered a settlement figure, which I understand to be around £150 admin plus the full fare. My questions, however, are:

1) Will she be asked to provide details of other journeys she has made between October and now and if so would she have to provide details of journeys with all operators?* She has made 3 other journeys but with Chiltern, which I gather also use TIL?
2) Is the full fare that is applied as part of any settlement for an Anytime Single or an Anytime Day Single? The price for one of the Chiltern journeys is £111 or £36 respectively!

* I am somewhat conflicted about this as she hasn't paid what she should on these journeys but the penalty seems disproportionate if it's £111 for one of the journeys.

Thanks in advance for your help and I will no doubt be returning when the first letter arrives.

 

[Cuthbert]

Sorry she travelled from Wylde Green?
That'll be WMR not Avanti.

 

[methecooldude]

My daughter (22) had foolishly let her railcard expire (in October - I know, I know) without realising and was today stopped by an inspector in Birmingham after taking a journey from Wylde Green. He wouldn't let her pay the fare difference (about £1.40) and/or a penalty fare and instead took her details and said TIL would be in touch. It was an Avanti train.

Although it was an innocent mistake, it's a fair cop. Hopefully she'll be offered a settlement figure, which I understand to be around £150 admin plus the full fare. My questions, however, are:

1) Will she be asked to provide details of other journeys she has made between October and now and if so would she have to provide details of journeys with all operators?* She has made 3 other journeys but with Chiltern, which I gather also use TIL?
2) Is the full fare that is applied as part of any settlement for an Anytime Single or an Anytime Day Single? The price for one of the Chiltern journeys is £36 or £111 respectively!

* I am somewhat conflicted about this as she hasn't paid what she should on these journeys but the penalty seems disproportionate if it's £111 for one of the journeys.

Thanks in advance for your help and I will no doubt be returning when the first letter arrives.

1) If she uses e-tickets, the railway will request from whichever retailer she uses as to her previous tickets purchases, regardless of operator. She will then be asked to pay the full fare for these journeys.
2) There's a difference? It'll be whatever is the relevant Anytime for the relevant journey. As you haven't given details of the Chiltern journeys, no idea

 

[fortbaxter]

Sorry she travelled from Wylde Green?
That'll be WMR not Avanti.

Yes, you're quite right. Upon further investigation, it was WMR and the guy on the gate had an Avanti jacket on.

 

[Cuthbert]

Yes, you're quite right. Upon further investigation, it was WMR and the guy on the gate had an Avanti jacket on.

If it was today then yes.
They had a multi ToC operation at New Street today.
I think WMR, TfW, Cross Country and Avanti Revenue Protection were involved.

 

[fortbaxter]

1) If she uses e-tickets, the railway will request from whichever retailer she uses as to her previous tickets purchases, regardless of operator. She will then be asked to pay the full fare for these journeys.
2) There's a difference? It'll be whatever is the relevant Anytime for the relevant journey. As you haven't given details of the Chiltern journeys, no idea

One of the journeys is High Wycombe to Birmingham. An Anytime Day Single is £36 and an Anytime Single is £111. I believe the former has to be used on a specified day whereas the latter can be used on any day.

 

[AlterEgo]

My questions, however, are:

1) Will she be asked to provide details of other journeys she has made between October and now and if so would she have to provide details of journeys with all operators?*

She won't be asked. They will likely just trawl her ticket purchasing accounts to find this out.

She has made 3 other journeys but with Chiltern, which I gather also use TIL?

It doesn't matter in this respect; they will recover the fare for any train journey, irrespective of whether those train companies use the same third party to handle their prosecution/fare evasion cases.

2) Is the full fare that is applied as part of any settlement for an Anytime Single or an Anytime Day Single? The price for one of the Chiltern journeys is £36 or £111 respectively!

It is usually the Anytime Single, but I'm not aware of too many instances where there's been such a disparity so it's hard to say which, if either, figure they will use.

 

[fortbaxter]

She won't be asked. They will likely just trawl her ticket purchasing accounts to find this out.


It doesn't matter in this respect; they will recover the fare for any train journey, irrespective of whether those train companies use the same third party to handle their prosecution/fare evasion cases.


It is usually the Anytime Single, but I'm not aware of too many instances where there's been such a disparity so it's hard to say which, if either, figure they will use.

Many thanks.

 

[furlong]

The expensive one is via London.

What ticket did she actually use - which route and how much did she pay for it?

The charge should be based on that. In theory it should only be the difference in fare and the fare should be based on the cheapest walk-up ticket type valid at the time of travel. In practice they do often get away with charging anytime fares (but that really comes from "how we've always done things" rather than from reading the current conditions and law) as most people don't try to argue.

 

[fortbaxter]

The expensive one is via London.

What ticket did she actually use - which route and how much did she pay for it?

The charge should be based on that. In theory it should only be the difference in fare and the fare should be based on the cheapest walk-up ticket type valid at the time of travel. In practice they do often get away with charging anytime fares (but that really comes from "how we've always done things" rather than from reading the current conditions and law) as most people don't try to argue.

Good spot! Hadn't noticed the via London option. She bought an Advance Single, went direct from High Wycombe to Birmingham Moor St and paid £14 after railcard discount.

 

[Hadders]

1) If she uses e-tickets, the railway will request from whichever retailer she uses as to her previous tickets purchases, regardless of operator. She will then be asked to pay the full fare for these journeys.

Just to be clear, ant ticket that is purchased online whether fulfilled as an e-ticket or collected from a ticket machine can be checked.

 

[fortbaxter]

Update: letter received now. Does it matter that it is inaccurate (it wasn't an Avanti train but it was an Avanti inspector)?

 

[Cuthbert]

Yeah Wylde Green are WMR trains only. But they had a multi-toc revenue operation on the day along with WMR, TfW, XC and Avanti revenue peoples at Birmingham New Street.
The gates, ticket machines and ticket office is run by Avanti but it is Network Rail station.

 

[Hadders]

The train companies have reciprocal agreements with each other so they can act on behalf of each other.

It's unfortunate that you're dealing with Avanti as they use the notoriously hard to deal with Transport Investigations Limited to deal with their cases. While they will probably offer an out of court settlement it often requires at least two letters to get them agree to do so.

If you were dealing directly with WMT it would be simpler.