Another doubling back question

[redbutton]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89327 got me thinking about my local stations:

London to Beckenham Jn via Bromley South. Sometimes it is more comfortable to take the fast trains to Bromley for air conditioning, seat availability, and other reasons, but this involves doubling back via Shortlands since the fast trains don't stop there.

Is this allowed? I know normally the doubleback at Shortlands would forbid it, but since SRT and BMS are in the same routing point group does the interchange rule from Section A apply?

Edit: Come to think of it, I think it might also be out because of the fares rule, considering that the fare is higher from Bromley to London than it is from Beckenham to London. So I suppose someone should just confirm that I'm being naughty when I change there.

 

[greatkingrat]

If you have a Beckenham Junction - London Terminals ticket then that is fine. However if you have a Zone 1-4 travelcard then you can't travel via Bromley as it is in Zone 5.

 

[redbutton]

I was looking at the paper season ticket since it's nearly £50 less than the Travelcard, so yeah that's good news.

But what about the fare from BMS to London being higher than from BKJ to London? Wouldn't that make Bromley Group an invalid routing point?

 

[maniacmartin]

Beckenham Junction is a Routeing Point in it's own right. Thus, in addition to direct trains and routes no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, you can use any mapped route between Beckenham Jn and London Terminals.

The appropriate maps for Beckenham Jn to London Terminals are maps are LK, LL and SL, which permit travel via Bromley South. (You can use any route that you can trace on these maps that does not pass through the same station twice). As Shortlands is a member of the Bromley South routeing group, you can double back between Bromley South and Shortlands for interchange purposes only. There are also no negative easements forbidding this that I can see.

The fares check is only used to determine the appropriate Routeing Point. As Beckenham Jn is a Routeing Point, it is by definition the appropriate routeing point, thus a fares check should not be done.

 

[MikeWh]

Does the fast train need to be routed via Catford? Would it become invalid if it was diverted via Herne Hill (and Beckenham Junction).

 

[maniacmartin]

Does the fast train need to be routed via Catford? Would it become invalid if it was diverted via Herne Hill (and Beckenham Junction).

Good question No doubt others will have their own opinions, but here's mine.

Well if a train was diverted, then usually tickets valid on its scheduled route would still be accepted But let's consider a train that was timetabled to go via Herne Hill...

Normally this would be invalid due to doubling back through Beckenham Jn, but with a season ticket I think it might be allowed as you can have many journeys starting and ending short

You make one journey to Bromley South, on your way to London Bridge via Hither Green (map LL). Then stop short at Bromley South, and start short on the equivalent return journey, ending at Beckenham Jn. Finally, make a third journey from Beckenham Jn to London. This avoids arguments starting short on Group stations rule, as it is not needed to justify this route.

The problem is, if the second train passed through Beckenham Junction non-stop, is the season ticket valid. This came up before (most recently here) without any consensus, as the NRCoC doesn't cover this scenario. We know that FGW and Southern appear to allow this, but other TOCs' interpretations may vary.

 

[redbutton]

The fares check is only used to determine the appropriate Routeing Point. As Beckenham Jn is a Routeing Point, it is by definition the appropriate routeing point, thus a fares check should not be done.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

And I thought figuring airfares was complicated back when I was an airline ticket agent!