Another Cross Country nightmare

[Hairyspotter]

Indeed. Nothing worse than a door slowly sliding open to reveal someone sat on the throne...

As regards equipment modifications and relocations, I'm led to believe these were suggested but unfortunately after the spec had been finalised and so it never happened.

 

[Russel]

Indeed. Nothing worse than a door slowly sliding open to reveal someone sat on the throne...

Then they look at you as if it's your fault!

As regards equipment modifications and relocations, I'm led to believe these were suggested but unfortunately after the spec had been finalised and so it never happened.

It's XC, they probably decided it would cost too much.

 

[Dr Hoo]

They smell of excrement because the waste outlet pipe runs adjacent to the hot exhaust pipe within the body of the vehicle. I'm afraid that needs taking up with the CAD wielding geniuses who failed to realise that hot exhaust and cold effluent would react thus, and unfortunately it can't be changed at this stage of the trains life.

I thought that the whole point of controlled emission toilets was that there is no ‘waste outlet pipe’ (besides the sealed discharge that is only dealt with at a servicing depot via a sealed flexible connection).

 

[Hairyspotter]

I thought that the whole point of controlled emission toilets was that there is no ‘waste outlet pipe’ (besides the sealed discharge that is only dealt with at a servicing depot via a sealed flexible connection).

The pipe that conveys waste from the toilet to the tank...that's the one that runs next to the exhaust pipe.

 

[Harpo]

It's XC, they probably decided it would cost too much.

Or perhaps that decision was outwith XC?

 

[Russel]

Or perhaps that decision was outwith XC?

Yeah maybe, but either way, they have a reputation for scrimping.

 

[LowLevel]

Or is it that these newer trains have a more logically and clearly placed call for aid system that greatly reduces the amount of spurious call for aid alarms? Certainly when I think of, for example, class 350s, the CFA is beneath a lift up flap with plenty of additional signage.

On a 170 the toilet flush button is on the rear wall and masked by the raised lid. In my experience the majority of passcoms on 170s (as 170s don't have a separate CFA system) are people pressing the passcom red button rather than a genuine emergency. See also leaning bikes on passcom buttons and inquisitive children pressing them.

All of this could and arguably should have been addressed during the refurbishment program (and I believe EMR 170s are having the flush button moved specifically to eliminate this issue).

What the XC and EMR 170s have had done in the refurbishment to address the issue is not obvious to the passenger but the answer is that the accessible area and toilet passcoms have been converted to call for aids with the emergency brake function disabled.

They sound for staff with a different tone and unlike the passcoms as designed which can only be answered by the driver can be answered by the guard in a non active cab too.

As far as I know the flush is where it always have been.

 

[Harpo]

Yeah maybe, but either way, they have a reputation for scrimping.

So you’re certain that ‘scrimping’ is their decision and not one being forced on them?

 

[Hairyspotter]

What the XC and EMR 170s have had done in the refurbishment to address the issue is not obvious to the passenger but the answer is that the accessible area and toilet passcoms have been converted to call for aids with the emergency brake function disabled.

They sound for staff with a different tone and unlike the passcoms as designed which can only be answered by the driver can be answered by the guard in a non active cab too.

As far as I know the flush is where it always have been.

I'm not aware of this happening on the XC 170s that have been refurbished so far, and the information about moving the flush button on EMR came from a friend working there. It would be good if that were the case, although that then raises the question about what happens if a CFA is operated in the toilet of a double set and the guard is in the other section if the CFA doesn't alert the driver

 

[Russel]

So you’re certain that ‘scrimping’ is their decision and not one being forced on them?

From what we've all seen since Arriva took over XC in 2007, their other rail operations and bus operations, penny pinching is certainly an Arriva trait.

The DFT certainly have a hand to play here, but let's not pretend all of poor old XC's woes are out of their control.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm not aware of this happening on the XC 170s that have been refurbished so far, and the information about moving the flush button on EMR came from a friend working there. It would be good if that were the case, although that then raises the question about what happens if a CFA is operated in the toilet of a double set and the guard is in the other section if the CFA doesn't alert the driver

The EMR and XC 170 refurbishment is technically to the same specification. It just makes a different sound to the driver guard buzzer sounding as you get with a passcom. Not had one go off in anger yet on a refurb set but I'll try it out next time I am on one (worry not, I'll be the guard ).

 

[Snow1964]

From what we've all seen since Arriva took over XC in 2007, their other rail operations and bus operations, penny pinching is certainly an Arriva trait.

It rather depends on what the penny pinching is, Southern Railway saved lots by reusing things and prefabricating lots of standard concrete components. But this allowed them to boost frequency, electrify etc

The DFT certainly have a hand to play here, but let's not pretend all of poor old XC's woes are out of their control.

Both the DfT and politicians, Covid is nearly 6 years ago, but there has been no attempt to return to growth or improvement contracts (instead of management contracts) couple of years ago. Labours obsession with nationalisation is just adding 3-5 years of stagnation (whilst they dither over GBR setup), leaving XC parent company to plod on milking it for profits as long as they can, without really having to worry about what state they leave it in by 2027-28 (as in will it be fully staffed with well trained employees etc)

I realise some (overdue) refurbishments are taking place of voyagers and 170s, but that is bare minimum investment. XC has basically been cuts or no change, to both routes and train lengths since Arriva took over 18 years ago. Not expansion, or more seats, or faster services, or quality improvements etc.

 

[Hairyspotter]

I have also wondered if a lot of the current industrial relations issues are "unfinished business" from those at the DfT from the previous government's tenure rather than wilful management decisions?

 

[Russel]

It rather depends on what the penny pinching is, Southern Railway saved lots by reusing things and prefabricating lots of standard concrete components. But this allowed them to boost frequency, electrify etc


Both the DfT and politicians, Covid is nearly 6 years ago, but there has been no attempt to return to growth or improvement contracts (instead of management contracts) couple of years ago. Labours obsession with nationalisation is just adding 3-5 years of stagnation (whilst they dither over GBR setup), leaving XC parent company to plod on milking it for profits as long as they can, without really having to worry about what state they leave it in by 2027-28 (as in will it be fully staffed with well trained employees etc)

I realise some (overdue) refurbishments are taking place of voyagers and 170s, but that is bare minimum investment. XC has basically been cuts or no change, to both routes and train lengths since Arriva took over 18 years ago. Not expansion, or more seats, or faster services, or quality improvements etc.

Just look at the Avanti Voyagers, before the Avanti refurb, still with the original Virgin interior they were in a much better state than the XC examples.

Now, I know the XC units are worked much harder, but there should also be increased maintenance to compensate for that, but it's very obvious, with whoever holds the purse strings, that hasn't happened.

The XC franchise, apart from a few additional 170 centre cars and the recent addition of additional Voyagers, has been stagnant for 18 years, have Arriva actually pushed the DFT in any meaningful way for additional resources and funds, or have they just operated it as it was handed to them on a "that'll do" basis?

 

[ThatBloke]

Just look at the Avanti Voyagers, before the Avanti refurb, still with the original Virgin interior they were in a much better state than the XC examples.

Now, I know the XC units are worked much harder, but there should also be increased maintenance to compensate for that, but it's very obvious, with whoever holds the purse strings, that hasn't happened.

The XC franchise, apart from a few additional 170 centre cars and the recent addition of additional Voyagers, has been stagnant for 18 years, have Arriva actually pushed the DFT in any meaningful way for additional resources and funds, or have they just operated it as it was handed to them on a "that'll do" basis?

I get the distinct impression that the senior managers at ArrivaCrossCountry are looking at Quarter4 2027, waiting to be relieved of their franchise and put out of their misery.
In the remaining months their priority is likely to be one based on short term cost, rather than investment for the future.

 

[Russel]

I get the distinct impression that the senior managers at ArrivaCrossCountry are looking at Quarter4 2027, waiting to be relieved of their franchise and put out of their misery.
In the remaining months their priority is likely to be one based on short term cost, rather than investment for the future.

Still almost two years away though, so the DFT, if they were serious, should be having a serious conversation with XC now over what their expectations are.

 

[Harpo]

Still almost two years away though, so the DFT, if they were serious, should be having a serious conversation with XC now over what their expectations are.

You think that hasn’t already happened continuously with DfT setting out XC’s financial parameters?

We are talking about serial micro-managers here and DfT have the gift of distance that allows them to be blameless in the eyes of the public along with others on here who ahould know better.

 

[Russel]

You think that hasn’t already happened continuously with DfT setting out XC’s financial parameters?

We are talking about serial micro-managers here and DfT have the gift of distance that allows them to be blameless in the eyes of the public along with others on here who ahould know better.

But we aren't seeing any improvements though, the trains may be getting a coat of paint, but the service it's self seems to be operating under managed decline which would suggest neither DFT or XC are serious, or, XC have realized there are little to no consequences for not operating the timetables/service levsls set out in their franchise agreement.

Routes such as Cardiff - Nottingham may as well be scrapped entirely on Sundays.

 

[Harpo]

the service it's self seems to be operating under managed decline which would suggest neither DFT or XC are serious

Routes such as Cardiff - Nottingham may as well be scrapped entirely on Sundays.

The reduction of the Cardiff service to five (booked) each way on a Sunday certainly feels that way and hasn’t generated any comment in Westminster or Cardiff.

It was only in 2021 that recommendation 8 of the ‘Union Connectivity Review’ by none other than Peter Hendy said:

Develop a package of railway improvements to increase connectivity and reduce journey times between Cardiff, Birmingham and beyond, which could include better rolling stock, timetable changes and enhanced infrastructure.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/619f8681e90e07043e8ff3c0/union-connectivity-review-final-report.pdf

 

[LowLevel]

I'm not aware of this happening on the XC 170s that have been refurbished so far, and the information about moving the flush button on EMR came from a friend working there. It would be good if that were the case, although that then raises the question about what happens if a CFA is operated in the toilet of a double set and the guard is in the other section if the CFA doesn't alert the driver

The answer having had an opportunity to play around with it is that plays two loud beeps repeatedly over the PA both in the saloon and in the cab and both the driver and guard can talk to it. The emergency brake is disabled.

 

[Russel]

The reduction of the Cardiff service to five (booked) each way on a Sunday certainly feels that way and hasn’t generated any comment in Westminster or Cardiff.

It was only in 2021 that recommendation 8 of the ‘Union Connectivity Review’ by none other than Peter Hendy said:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/619f8681e90e07043e8ff3c0/union-connectivity-review-final-report.pdf

Indeed

While not quite the same, just compare how much noise has been generated by XC giving up with the 170 Sunday routes compared to the noise generated by Avanti deciding to run 1 morning Manchester - London service as ECS, it's worlds apart

 

[Hairyspotter]

Cross Country living up to its Cinderella reputation. It doesn't serve London so it's not important.

Its ironic that in my lifetime I've seen it go from running with cast off 47s and stock , to brand new trains, to begging for those same trains as second or third hand.

Meanwhile, some EMU in the former NSE area gets a speck of dust on it and a fleet replacement is ordered...

XC has to be the most clear cut case for new Bi mode trains and yet it gets roundly ignored.

 

[Snow1964]

Friday 07:55 just checked XC website for updates.
Showing 57 service updates !

2 cancellations
1 engineering work
25 Assessibility updates
8 station updates
8 formation updates
13 catering updates

Service Updates | CrossCountry Trains

Book quickly and easily. Buy cheap train tickets, find live train times, explore Railcards, and more today with CrossCountry.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Day has hardly got going and there are incomplete service in multiple ways

 

[DDB]

It is going to be fascinating to see what the various bits of government say when determing the lumo Cardiff to York open access application. Are they going to have the cheek to deny it on the grounds it would be abstractive from services that are constantly cancelled and regularly too busy to board?
I really hope it is approved to give XC a kick up the backside!

 

[Snow1964]

Cross Country is a total disaster today per their service updates, with 100 updates

18 Early cancellations
41 cancellations
2 delays
1 engineering work
11 Assessibility
7 station updates
4 formation updates
16 catering updates

Service Updates | CrossCountry Trains

Book quickly and easily. Buy cheap train tickets, find live train times, explore Railcards, and more today with CrossCountry.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

 

[Jimini]

Cross Country is a total disaster today per their service updates, with 100 updates

18 Early cancellations
41 cancellations
2 delays
1 engineering work
11 Assessibility
7 station updates
4 formation updates
16 catering updates

Service Updates | CrossCountry Trains

Book quickly and easily. Buy cheap train tickets, find live train times, explore Railcards, and more today with CrossCountry.

www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Any insider info here on whether the 1625 Manchester > Bournemouth service will run today?

XC journey check says no:

16:25 Manchester Piccadilly to Reading due 19:39

• 04/01/26 16:25 Manchester Piccadilly to Reading due 19:39 will be cancelled.
• This is due to a shortage of train drivers.

NRE says yes:

Manchester Piccadilly(MAN)to Bournemouth(BMH)Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth​

Calling at Coventry and Reading​

18:26 On time
Platform-
1h 15m4 stopsCrossCountry

Still showing as a double Voyager on RTT, although I appreciate that site takes longer to pick up cancellations.



Cheers ~ Jim.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Any insider info here on whether the 1625 Manchester > Bournemouth service will run today?

XC journey check says no:



NRE says yes:




Still showing as a double Voyager on RTT, although I appreciate that site takes longer to pick up cancellations.



Cheers ~ Jim.

The train is cancelled on the 4th. I.e Sunday.

 

[Jimini]

The train is cancelled on the 4th. I.e Sunday.

That would explain it then Thanks chap. I'm going to blame that on not knowing what day it is because of Christmas / NY

 

[The exile]

That said, train toilets with sliding doors have been commonplace for 20+ years and so many people still haven't worked out what the lock button does, so who knows?

Given the variety of different permutations - is it really surprising?

 

[Russel]

Given the variety of different permutations - is it really surprising?

Quite honestly, yes, there is usually three buttons, open, close and lock, usually accompanied by instructions, it's not difficult...