Assessments of seat belts on trains were done after Ufton Nervet - iIRC it was established that the benefit was negative! The issue is that in most circumstances evacuating a train is the last thing you want people to be doing.
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Another Cross Country nightmare
- Thread starter BREMENMURRAY
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Hairyspotter
Member
Unfortunately there really isn't a quick fix to any of this.
Even if the DfT were to agree to XC having the other 8 221 units currently off lease or elsewhere, it would be several weeks before these were ready for traffic due to exams etc after a long time out of traffic. There's still then the crewing issues, which has been discussed at length on here and whether people like it or not, isn't going to go away quickly.
There also isn't really any "quick" replacement stock to add into the XC portfolio without massively disrupting the service pattern eg deciding to run Birmingham to Manchester with off lease EMUs means you'd need to split the Manchester- Bournemouth and Manchester-Bristol service groups at New Street, which is constrained for platforms as is, and that's without even taking into account crew training requirements, with circa 160 drivers at Birmingham and Manchester needing training on the stock. That same training requirement then ripples out if you consider adding stock elsewhere on the network (even if it were available) that isn't part of the current traction portfolio, so again, no quick fix.
Ideally, XC needs long term vision and investment with at the least bi-mode rolling stock in longer formations. That won't fix the current overcrowding either but at least in the longer term it will address the problem. Sadly there is neither the willpower nor fiscal appetite to do so.
Even if the DfT were to agree to XC having the other 8 221 units currently off lease or elsewhere, it would be several weeks before these were ready for traffic due to exams etc after a long time out of traffic. There's still then the crewing issues, which has been discussed at length on here and whether people like it or not, isn't going to go away quickly.
There also isn't really any "quick" replacement stock to add into the XC portfolio without massively disrupting the service pattern eg deciding to run Birmingham to Manchester with off lease EMUs means you'd need to split the Manchester- Bournemouth and Manchester-Bristol service groups at New Street, which is constrained for platforms as is, and that's without even taking into account crew training requirements, with circa 160 drivers at Birmingham and Manchester needing training on the stock. That same training requirement then ripples out if you consider adding stock elsewhere on the network (even if it were available) that isn't part of the current traction portfolio, so again, no quick fix.
Ideally, XC needs long term vision and investment with at the least bi-mode rolling stock in longer formations. That won't fix the current overcrowding either but at least in the longer term it will address the problem. Sadly there is neither the willpower nor fiscal appetite to do so.
So while the mess is sorted out, why not reduce the number of advertised services and double the units up? A public apology for the current **** show? Why not refund people for the awful experience, over and above any delay-repay stuff? The situation is intolerable.
Snow1964
Established Member
Although I don't normally reply to my own threads, ORR quarterly figures for Oct-Dec 2025 now out.
XC Passenger numbers 10.3m (unchanged vs Oct-Dec 2024) 4% below average increase of all operators
XC passenger km up 0.9% on 2024
XC train km up 7% to 6.4m km (still well below 8.1m pre-Covid)
XC vehicle km up 12% to 32.7 km (still below 35m pre-Covid)
Some improvement, but train service operated still well below pre-covid, even if passenger volumes are back to normal. Clearly continuing a reduced service in late 2025 is badly inconsistent with passenger demand.
bramling
Veteran Member
The whole XC situation is quite depressing. XC is already firmly in the long grass as far as nationalisation goes, and the likelihood is this will just result in more of the same. A franchise change might actually have offered an opportunity to shake things up a bit, allow someone the opportunity to come up with an actual plan to improve things.
Meanwhile the DFT’s modus operandi on rolling stock seems to be to allow stock to be stored for a while on the basis that it’s the leasing company’s problem, which then results in troubled reintroductions like we have seen with the 175s and 379s. At least Scotland doesn’t seem to be going down this road with the 222 fleet.
I suspect ten years from now there will be the same sort of discussion on here citing the same ongoing issues with XC.
Is there a figure within that for ‘locked up and unavailable to passengers’?
WTT Gremlin
Member
Because it is the leasing company's problem, or should the DfT just pay whatever rate a ROSCO offers?
October to December will always be awkward from varying engineering works. Passenger numbers doesn't adjust for splits which makes comparing those numbers trickier as split use increased over time. The passenger km per vehicle km is down to 26.51 below the 2019 figure.
Not available. These numbers include any empty stock workings for any purpose in the respective kms as well as any vehicles locked out. These figures can give an indication of relative growth but there are severe limitations in this dataset.
So, my latest LDS-SOU trip went via London, and was a breath of fresh air. Got an Adv Single to KGX, then an open off peak rtn WAT-SOU, and off peak single KGX-LDS for some return flexibility. Got a seat, nice trains, no toilet smell, limited tedious announcements, and pretty much same cost. Even managed to work out how to get from KGX to WAT on the tube with minimal effort (don't follow the signs). Both train components run every 30 mins too which is much better. So screw XC.
Snow1964
Established Member
It's alright when going to Southampton, but when you live near Bath or Bristol, going an extra 100 miles detour to avoid XC just seems plain wrong.
But if you want to go to/from South West, it's either put up with XC, take a long detour via London, or drive or fly. Becomes least worst option rather than good option.
Trainman40083
Established Member
I would have to check the Tube connection from Kings Cross to Waterloo. I think the change was Oxford Circus where, if you were in the middle of the train, it was almost cross platform. In recent years, I've caught Thameslink to Blackfriars or London Bridge. In the former case, walked the rest, or caught a train back to Waterloo East
There are multiple passageways allowing a cross-platform transfer at Oxford Circus. It was part of the Victoria line's design. Unfortunately such convenience has rarely been factored into later designs, e.g. the Jubilee or Elizabeth lines.
Tetragon213
Member
It's also bizarrely cheaper to go via London as well, sometimes.
NER1621
Member
I’m assuming by this you mean walk out of the front of Kings Cross mainline, go down the stairs to the tube, ignore all the signage at the foot of the stairs directing you right to the Victoria line and instead turn *left*, walk along to the old ticket hall and descend directly to the Victoria line from there (taking about a minute instead of a five minute trail around the bowels of Kings Cross underground if you follow the official signed route)? Then a simple level cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus onto the Bakerloo.
In the reverse direction when arriving at Kings Cross on the Victoria line, ignore all the direction signage to Kings Cross station and instead follow the exit for British Library & Euston Road which will bring you quickly up into the old main ticket hall and then up the stairs to the front of Kings Criss mainline. (Lifts are also available next to the stairs.)
I had a recent trip from Yorkshire to Bristol, and XC provided by far the better value, so I used them. It was very much a tale of two cross country's in terms of passenger experience.
Trip down, got an unreserved seat in the back carriage of a two unit set. Beautiful journey, no overcrowding, just what rail travel should be.
The trip back on the Sunday was a bit more eventful. The train was showing as "delayed" from Temple Meads - never a good sign. Turned out that there was some problem with the train at Plymouth that had to be inspected, so no train.
To their credit, rather than giving up, XC rustled up a three carriage 170 from somewhere, and we ended up having a pleasant trip to Birmingham on unexpected stock. Well done XC.
At New Street though, things went awry, and we were supposed to change onto an awaiting Voyager. It was Cross platform interchange, but the said Voyager was only a single unit, and was already comparatively full from passengers at Birmingham. I offered to stump up weekend first to the staff, but they were having none of it.
Even though on an AP ticket, I decided to chance it with the next train (this amount of disruption must surely have given me some leeway). So I went to one of the bars in New Street and waited for the next train in the hope that it would be a double unit.
It was (joy) but it turned out they were detatching the rear unit and all passengers were to be squeezed on the front unit. This was very bad, and it was only by luck that I managed to get a seat after Derby
The moral of this storey is that the good people on the ground at XC are trying their best, but if they're having to chuck out single voyagers on what must be their busiest route (Birmingham to Derby) at what must be one of their busiest times (Sunday evening), they clearly don't have enough stock to run the service.
If I were them, I'd hire in a Deltic and a rake of mk2's again.
Trip down, got an unreserved seat in the back carriage of a two unit set. Beautiful journey, no overcrowding, just what rail travel should be.
The trip back on the Sunday was a bit more eventful. The train was showing as "delayed" from Temple Meads - never a good sign. Turned out that there was some problem with the train at Plymouth that had to be inspected, so no train.
To their credit, rather than giving up, XC rustled up a three carriage 170 from somewhere, and we ended up having a pleasant trip to Birmingham on unexpected stock. Well done XC.
At New Street though, things went awry, and we were supposed to change onto an awaiting Voyager. It was Cross platform interchange, but the said Voyager was only a single unit, and was already comparatively full from passengers at Birmingham. I offered to stump up weekend first to the staff, but they were having none of it.
Even though on an AP ticket, I decided to chance it with the next train (this amount of disruption must surely have given me some leeway). So I went to one of the bars in New Street and waited for the next train in the hope that it would be a double unit.
It was (joy) but it turned out they were detatching the rear unit and all passengers were to be squeezed on the front unit. This was very bad, and it was only by luck that I managed to get a seat after Derby
The moral of this storey is that the good people on the ground at XC are trying their best, but if they're having to chuck out single voyagers on what must be their busiest route (Birmingham to Derby) at what must be one of their busiest times (Sunday evening), they clearly don't have enough stock to run the service.
If I were them, I'd hire in a Deltic and a rake of mk2's again.
Tetragon213
Member
If only we had some rolling stock made up of slightly tougher Mk3s available. Oh, and maybe have 2 locos to reduce the chances of a failure ending the service! Oh, oh, and maybe even find one that can do 125 mph!
Oh wait... they did have them at one point. And XC rather stupidly got told to retire them by the DfT.
The DaFT truly are the enemy of the railway sometimes.
Imo, XC should be getting all the Voyagers it can get, as well as the 180 fleet when GC gets rid of theirs. Perhaps even look into the Class 67/Mk4s if that's what it takes. 2x67s with a rake of 8 Mk4s between them should be able to hit 125mph comfortably without losing too much time.
Trainman40083
Established Member
I disagree with your last paragraph. What they need on key flies is 8 car trains, rather than two units where one is sometimes locked out. A type which can better handle luggage. Maybe a better environment where you can stand. I suspect it will happen, in time.
Snow1964
Established Member
And that is a management and HR failing.
They agreed to the dual staffing policy, timetable is virtually constant for year, or two or three, so should know number of trained staff needed and have time to get and train up staff. Ultimately HR Dept has one main function, to ensure there are sufficient fully trained staff, but they haven't.
I suspect someone will comment that DfT have specified x and y, but that would imply them to staff it to do x and y, otherwise why would they agree to take on x and y if they weren't allowed to staff it.
Yes, getting rid of the HST's was a stupid decision.
voyagerdude220
Established Member
- Joined
- 13 Oct 2005
- Messages
- 4,262
Definitely. If (yes it's a completely unrealistic idea) they had been allowed to keep the HSTs they could have used them to purely run on additional relief trains to try to ease the pressure on the Voyagers.
E.g.
Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham- Bristol (Temple Meads)- Exeter-Plymouth.
Manchester-Stoke-Birmingham-Reading-Bournemouth etc. etc.
And in theory you could potentially shorten the HSTs to 5/6 carriages to allow them to accelerate more quickly but because of the limited stops not be too crowded.
Yes this! Even better is to use the steps directly down to the old ticket hall, the ones near the St Pancras road crossing not the ones immediately out and right. The signs on the latter take you on a very long way round (right to the new ticket hall, back on yourself, along a set of cramped tunnels...). Assume it's too reduce overcrowding in the old ticket hall with folk coming from Circle to Victoria/Piccadily but it is very tedious. I managed KGX platform to Waterloo in under 15 mins, and the Victoria - Bakerloo change is adjacent and level, and very quick.Exactly this.
I refer to the signed route to the Victoria Line as the ‘tourist route’
Yes, no doubt staff on the ground are doing their best, but it must be awful to have to work with such a rubbish company and limited stock. The suits hide away as they always do. No response to my complaint at all. Pathetic. And the London route was similar price, even with an open off-peak return.
Yes, I tend to always go via London on my jaunts to Cornwall. Did last week, and apart from the first leg down to London which was a bit busy (five car Azuma, which I assume was a short form) it was all pretty perfect.
NER1621
Member
Unfortunately LNER think that a five car Azuma is a perfectly adequate train formation for many of their services. Obviously some XC mangers have moved companies !
dk1
Veteran Member
To be fair they are perfect on the Lincoln services and for those splitting but not so good on their own to Leeds or elsewhere.
Tetragon213
Member
I... actually have to disagree. I've had some brilliant staff on XC, but I've had more than my fair share of incredibly unprofessional and frankly borderline hostile staff interactions from XC.
I distinctly remember an incident going towards Cardiff where a guard spent a solid minute and a half inspecting my ticket, as if she was convinced it was a fake. She looked almost disappointed that she wouldn't be able to throw me off the train. Another time, I informed a guard that someone had stolen my seat; now, had the guard simply said "terribly sorry sir, but there's nothing I can do. Have you tried the unreserved coach?", that would have been fine. However, his actual words were closer to "what do you want me to do about it? [urinate] off". Yes, I complained post-journey.
Maybe I've been unlucky, but my experiences have been pretty poor with XC.
Killingworth
Established Member
Obviously we've all had multiple experiences of personal service on trains and other businesses as well as on telephones. Many will have been responsible for providing those services.
I like to think a unit I was responsible for gave excellent service and that was certainly the feedback we got. However there was one person I recall even 30 years later. If anything could go wrong it homed in on him. I dreaded seeing him or hearing his name. I'm afraid it was just bad luck, all the things that went wrong were unrelated, except they happened to him. He was always very polite. It helped me to help him.
When dealing with the public you can encounter some very unreasonable people. For reasons beyond your control they may be having a bad day long before they cross your path. They seem to want blood right from the start. By the time you finish that contact you may be shaking. I've seen team members reduced to tears and having to go and sit down to recover. You can't easily do that on a train. We don't know what anyone else has had to endure earlier. When you've just been browbeaten you may be less well disposed towards the next tetchy contact. You can be inwardly shaking for hours.
Personally I can't recall any issues with XC personnel. Their trains, yes. It must often be a nightmare trying to placate the public.