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Another container comes off train....
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RailUK Forums
It's been a windy 24hrs across much of the country...
I'm sure this has been discussed at length on here before.. but surely locking spigots vs reliance on gravity needs to be looked at.. if that is the issue..?
How many similar occurances is this..?
And is a similar type of rolling stock involved in each incident..?
I'm sure this has been discussed at length on here before.. but surely locking spigots vs reliance on gravity needs to be looked at.. if that is the issue..?
How many similar occurances is this..?
And is a similar type of rolling stock involved in each incident..?
tsr
Established Member
This thread primarily concerns the incident on the Joint Line in the Spalding area - so I shouldn't think so
Just driven past the scene at Littleworth with the stranded GBRF loco and containers. It's scary how regular these events seem to be occurring on the network.
Does anyone know if the planned overnight closure of the ECML between Peterborough - Doncaster has been postponed for tonight.
Does anyone know if the planned overnight closure of the ECML between Peterborough - Doncaster has been postponed for tonight.
indeed. If it can happen in the middle of nowhere, what's to stop it happening going through a busy station at 60mph?ultrabox said:
The Planner
Veteran Member
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Class 4, could be up to 75mph.
wensley
Established Member
The ECML possession has been cancelled in order to provide a through route Peterborough - Doncaster whilst the recovery work takes place.
Thankfully everyone is OK, it could have been a lot worse.
railnerd
Member
Scotty
Member
I work in Peterborough, and the double-decker Stagecoach replacement bus was packed at 5.30.
The winds have been horrendous over the last 24 hours, almost knocking people off their feet.
Not looking forward to another potential bus in the morning...
The winds have been horrendous over the last 24 hours, almost knocking people off their feet.
Not looking forward to another potential bus in the morning...
RAIB to investigate Cumbria incident: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/150307_Scout_Green.cfm
Scotty
Member
Apparently the Joint Line is expected to be OK by 4am
railnerd
Member
Hi.
A light engine is going to Littleworth. Then it will work back to Eastfield wrong road with the wagons and when they get there, they will examine the suspect trailer.
A light engine is going to Littleworth. Then it will work back to Eastfield wrong road with the wagons and when they get there, they will examine the suspect trailer.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I guess we are fortunate to still have crossovers mid route after the signal boxes closed.
railnerd
Member
Hi.
Dont know if youre being ironic Richmond, but they took out the St. James Deeping crossover about a year before the box went. They will work wrong road all the way to the bi-di line at Werrington Jn.
Just to let everyone know, just one week after they took the crossover out at SJD, they needed it!
Dont know if youre being ironic Richmond, but they took out the St. James Deeping crossover about a year before the box went. They will work wrong road all the way to the bi-di line at Werrington Jn.
Just to let everyone know, just one week after they took the crossover out at SJD, they needed it!
Scotty
Member
Line back up and running as normal this morning, however we did go very slowly over the problem area
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Thanks for those photos Railnerd. I imagine RAIB will widen the Scout Green investigation to cover this one too.
Should be a 20mph ESR over the affected area at the moment.
I commented on this type of incident on a previous thread about how dangerous these containers can be if they become dislodged. What if there was a commuter train passing on the other line at the same moment this happened? It doesn't bear thinking about. This is becoming too common a problem to be ignored. There must be an industry wide solution to find a suitable locking practice that can be implemented to existing rolling stock that will not impinge too much on the actual operations.
I passed a few container trains on the way North on the ECML on Monday and the thought did cross my mind several times about the impact our train would have smashing into one of these containers lying across the line in front of us. Does someone have to die before they do something about it?
I passed a few container trains on the way North on the ECML on Monday and the thought did cross my mind several times about the impact our train would have smashing into one of these containers lying across the line in front of us. Does someone have to die before they do something about it?
Geezertronic
Established Member
Looking at the images, presumably the height of the platform would stop a container falling onto a platform although I assume damage would be caused to the track-side of the platform should a container be forced against it
Whilst I do agree something should be done about this to lower the risk of a collision further I have to ask
1) How many containers have come off in the last year?
2) How many containers were moved in the last year?
3) How many passenger services pass container freights in the last year
4) Wont somebody please think of the children
87019Chris
Member
A few things to take into mind there, barring the last option (why think about them now its already too late)
but the percentage of containers moved to those that have fallen must be fairly small. but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem, we could have to wait until something bad happens till we get a solution. However its finding a better locking mechanism that doesn't take too long to activate and then also being able to fit it to all containers (Billions). Also someone could already be working on this in some form. Also you should be safe on a platform as you should be standing back from the platform edge as the Passing train goes through
but also the platform would help stop it.It looks like it. Clearly there is a problem that could lead to serious consequences, but profit comes first. Perhaps a broadsheet should be investigating this......
ac6000cw
Established Member
Locking pins can already be fitted to the spigots (if required e.g. in very windy conditions) - they are mentioned in the RAIB report which is linked above.
At this rate, I suspect that it won't be very long before they become mandatory....
Out of interest, how are containers secured to road trailers ?
At this rate, I suspect that it won't be very long before they become mandatory....
Out of interest, how are containers secured to road trailers ?
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
The last few posts show why I'm keen to know whether the latest incident is to a FEA-B with inward hinging spigots like the other three (confirmed by RAIB). Someone with expert knowledge of such things should be able to deduce this from Railnerd's photos above.
There doesn't seem to be any tendency of containers to fall off spigots with correctly-designed mountings, unless the wagon has already derailed. So it seems to be an issue of developing a safe way of using the hinged spigots on the FEA-B, or replacing them with something better, rather than requiring all spigots on all wagons to use locking pins or be replaced with twist locks.
There doesn't seem to be any tendency of containers to fall off spigots with correctly-designed mountings, unless the wagon has already derailed. So it seems to be an issue of developing a safe way of using the hinged spigots on the FEA-B, or replacing them with something better, rather than requiring all spigots on all wagons to use locking pins or be replaced with twist locks.
A few things to take into mind there, barring the last option (why think about them now its already too late)
Also someone could already be working on this in some form. Also you should be safe on a platform as you should be standing back from the platform edge as the Passing train goes through
Don't all containers already come with holes for something to go through?
I do amit that something should be done to prevent it but in reality these are high sided things and even if locked there is still the risk of one going due to an uneven load in it which then could take 2 or 4 with it leading to a cascade and all of them going over - which is far worse.
Worst. April. Fool. Ever.
As mentioned before, the issue is only on specific wagons under specific circumstances.
The combination of factors that make the scenario possible (not guaranteed) is that the wagons involved are the FEA-B and FEA-S type wagons with spigots that fold inwards, coupled with the container being empty and the wind gust speed above a certain amount (I can't remember the exact speed). Thats why these incidents are thankfully few and far between as these exact combinations are pretty infrequent.
This issue is not prevalent with FEA-A or FEA-C wagons which make up most of the FEA fleet.
You don't need to invent some fancy electronic or pneumatical locking system, the relevant containers on the relevant wagons just need manually pinning upon train prep.
What does need to happen is better communication between the various rail controls to ensure the right information is handed to the right people on the ground as well as a better understanding by those that book the containers in the first place about the potential issues.
Trains out of Felixstowe are now normally pre planned before the inbound train even arrives, therefore there is more scope to see potential problems well before hand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was an FEA-S which for all intents and purposes is the same as an FEA-B. FEA-S is a Single wagon variation on the FEA-B typw which are themselves a twin set.
The combination of factors that make the scenario possible (not guaranteed) is that the wagons involved are the FEA-B and FEA-S type wagons with spigots that fold inwards, coupled with the container being empty and the wind gust speed above a certain amount (I can't remember the exact speed). Thats why these incidents are thankfully few and far between as these exact combinations are pretty infrequent.
This issue is not prevalent with FEA-A or FEA-C wagons which make up most of the FEA fleet.
You don't need to invent some fancy electronic or pneumatical locking system, the relevant containers on the relevant wagons just need manually pinning upon train prep.
What does need to happen is better communication between the various rail controls to ensure the right information is handed to the right people on the ground as well as a better understanding by those that book the containers in the first place about the potential issues.
Trains out of Felixstowe are now normally pre planned before the inbound train even arrives, therefore there is more scope to see potential problems well before hand.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was an FEA-S which for all intents and purposes is the same as an FEA-B. FEA-S is a Single wagon variation on the FEA-B typw which are themselves a twin set.
Only by luck has there not been a serious accident because of this. Even today, winds remain high and you can see Freightliner and Intermodal trains travelling at full line speed. As I say, profit before safety. Please feel free to dismiss or bury heads in sand, I just hope that nobody is killed if another comes off.
So its only by luck that there hasn't been a serious accident in how many years? And if there is one now then it is only because of profit driven companies compromising safety?
And I take it you are qualified and have carried out a full risk assessment on the containers and the wagons they are carried on to come to your conclusion then?
Im off to bury my qualified head in the sand.
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