Another Class 70007 on Fire / Another 70 Failure

[Schnellzug]

Guess what -- I saw a Class 70 yesterday that WASN'T on fire... 70013 waiting patiently outside Salop for us to trundle south.

Having said that, there was a lot of rain yesterday, so it probably didn't get a chance to start.

is that the General Electric or the BR Standard one? I think the latter is one that is usually supposed to have smoke coming from it ...
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And how many of the classes you mention had a totally trouble-free introduction? To say the 70s are not up to the job is patently incorrect unless the faults are caused by the job itself (eg the engine is underpowered). IMHO there is probably a design flaw or a maintenance problem - and my money is on the latter (Making no criticism of anyone - people can follow the wrong instructions perfectly).
I wonder why this rash is happening now and affecting locos across the entire range.

I expect it's probably because, rather than a basically off- the shelf design (like the 59s and 66s), it's an all-new design apart from the electrics and traction motors. I wonder if it might not be a kind of replay of the Modernisation Plan, when BR bought lots of designs straight off the Drawing board without having the benefit of ordering one or two prototypes to give a thorough testing first.

 

[Pumbaa]

By 6pm the entire fleet was grounded according to Twitter (MT @TheFactCompiler)

 

[43067]

On WNXX things had changed slightly at around 1930 with the following units being used, 70005 on 4Z12 crewe to L'pool bulk, 70016 on 6F03 Ellesmere port to Fiddlers ferry, 70013 on 4V07 crewe to portbury and 70017 on 4L60 crewe bashford hall to ipswich. Anyone think freightliner should buy some of the redundant 60's not being put through Toton. I bet they'd look good in their corporate colours

 

[Pen Mill]

Anyone think freightliner should buy some of the redundant 60's not being put through Toton. I bet they'd look good in their corporate colours

Doubt it , hire maybe but I don't think there are any "Ready to Roll" 60s out there at the moment as DBS are doing them up for their own needs as required.

The Freightliner colours may come out something like the 90s eg 90045 which look quite good.

 

[Hydro]

Anyone think freightliner should buy some of the redundant 60's not being put through Toton.

Good thing FL have more sense than to to buy 60mph engines that have been robbed more than a Liverpool branch of Currys.

 

[Whistler40145]

Bad move if Freightliner had Class 60s, not only technology wise is it a backwards move, but it'll only be a stopgap move. IMHO, so were Class 57s, they are simply re-engined Class 47s.


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[Schnellzug]

Bad move if Freightliner had Class 60s, not only technology wise is it a backwards move, but it'll only be a stopgap move. IMHO, so were Class 57s, they are simply re-engined Class 47s.


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Quite right; if the choice is between cutting edge technology,
and, er, something that works,
well, it's a no-brainer, isn't it.

 

[DownSouth]

I expect it's probably because, rather than a basically off- the shelf design (like the 59s and 66s), it's an all-new design apart from the electrics and traction motors. I wonder if it might not be a kind of replay of the Modernisation Plan, when BR bought lots of designs straight off the Drawing board without having the benefit of ordering one or two prototypes to give a thorough testing first.

20 locomotives is a small enough order to count as a kind of trial, once the issues are sorted out they can all be retro-fitted with the fixed kit.

Somebody has to be the first ones using them.

Perhaps the current US standard unit, the GEVO engine, wouldn't meet Euro standards, so they had to try to find something else in-house. Or perhaps they were trying to break into the European market with something all-new.

Never mind European emissions standards, the GEVO engine can't fit in a British loading gauge.

Australian locomotives for network use (not for the isolated iron ore railways) have to fit into a very similar loading gauge as those in Britain. The local rolling stock manufacturer United-Goninan Rail (builds local spec locomotives with GE traction gear in Sydney) have tried everything they possibly could to modify a GEVO to fit, but it's simply too tall and too heavy.

 

[D1009]

Quite right; if the choice is between cutting edge technology,
and, er, something that works,
well, it's a no-brainer, isn't it.

Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, Stephenson's Rocket would still be around.

 

[DownSouth]

Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, Stephenson's Rocket would still be around.

No it wouldn't. It wouldn't have been developed at all when horses and sailing ships were doing a good enough job.

Ignoring the fact they are all with one of Freightliner's competitors, would a Class 60 actually be suitable? Are they reliable? I also read they are limited to 60mph so they wouldn't be able to keep to a Powerhaul timetable on a passenger-dominated route like the WCML.

 

[scoope]

10 locos out of service at one point (today) from an effective fleet of 19 but we must remember what the Class 50s were like............they didnt get the 50:50 name from nowhere

 

[Whistler40145]

How much testing had taken place with Class 70s prior to being shipped over to the UK?

Was this testing intense including loads similar to those they would be hauling in the UK?


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[Pen Mill]

Obviously , the Class 60 argument is a long stretchy one and very unlikely to happen BUT if the 70's fleet of 19 (or 19-10) is grounded for any length of time , can FL still fulfill their customer service obligations during that period.
19 out of a fleet of 126 (15%), that's a big hole to fill.

 

[Pacerpilot]

60s are of little use. Most of our empties are are timed at 75mph, not to mention the Intermodal workings....and the 60s are hardly bathed in glory in the reliability stakes.

Nor are the 70s the only design that has been troubled after introduction, 60s, 175s,180s,458s...the whole Class 155 fleet was taken out of service at one point.

 

[DownSouth]

60s are of little use. Most of our empties are are timed at 75mph, not to mention the Intermodal workings....and the 60s are hardly bathed in glory in the reliability stakes.

Nor are the 70s the only design that has been troubled after introduction, 60s, 175s,180s,458s...the whole Class 155 fleet was taken out of service at one point.

Thanks for the informed answer.

 

[Pen Mill]

10 locos out of service at one point (today) from an effective fleet of 19 but we must remember what the Class 50s were like............they didnt get the 50:50 name from nowhere

Do you know which 10 ?
I believe that 007/018 are fire damaged and then 019 was stopped Yesterday .... and then what ?

 

[43067]

Took this from WNXX it's the most up to date i could find:

DFGH FL Heavy Haul
Stopped 70002 70003 70015
Available 70004 70005 70006 70010 70011 70013 70014 70016
DFGI FL Intermodal
Stopped 70001 70007 70008 70009 70018 70019 70020
Available 70017

Class 70s AM 03/05/12
Loco Pool Location/Working Status Code
70001 DFGI Southampton Maritime X N/100
70002 DFGH Crewe Basford Hall T N/316
70003 DFGH Leeds Midland Road D N/316
70004 DFGH 4S75 Drax to Killoch N -
70005 DFGH Crewe Basford Hall N -
70006 DFGH Stoke Gifford N -
70007 DFGI Leeds Midland Road D N/151
70008 DFGI Southampton Maritime D N/SPT
70009 DFGI Eastleigh X A/100
70010 DFGH 6M30 Liverpool to Ratcliffe N -
70011 DFGH 4F02 Garston to Ellesmere Port N -
70013 DFGH 6M07 Portbury to Rugeley N -
70014 DFGH Fiddlers Ferry N -
70015 DFGH Leeds Midland Road X B exam
70016 DFGH Crewe Basford Hall N -
70017 DFGI Ipswich N -
70018 DFGI Brush Traction, Loughborough W B/FRE
70019 DFGI Southampton Maritime X N/100
70020 DFGI Crewe Basford Hall D N/SPT

Sorry about my wild 60 idea :-0

 

[Whistler40145]

I hate to think what mess Freightliner would be in had they ordered a large fleet of Class 70s.


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[Pen Mill]

Took this from WNXX it's the most up to date i could find:

DFGH FL Heavy Haul
Stopped 70002 70003 70015
Available 70004 70005 70006 70010 70011 70013 70014 70016
DFGI FL Intermodal
Stopped 70001 70007 70008 70009 70018 70019 70020
Available 70017

Sorry about my wild 60 idea :-0

Sheesh ,does put it into perspective !
Now where are those 60s ?

 

[aylesbury]

Perhaps we should call these loco,s the Flame Class.

 

[Oswyntail]

So the crocks are spread across all the batches. Are the faults consistent? If not, then it is more likely to be maintenance than design related. It is not as if they are all popping off in the same way or at the same age.

 

[fgwrich]

So the crocks are spread across all the batches. Are the faults consistent? If not, then it is more likely to be maintenance than design related. It is not as if they are all popping off in the same way or at the same age.

Im not quite sure at the moment, however they do still seem to be having all sorts of faults - this was 70006 back in January almost giving up in a cloud of smoke at Pilning, interestingly the smoke almost appears to be coming up from underneath the loco - Traction motors perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-HsiYSuSJU

 

[tonyderidem]

Perhaps we should call these loco,s the Flame Class.

I think should be called the "Pyro" class.::roll:

 

[Schnellzug]

So the crocks are spread across all the batches. Are the faults consistent? If not, then it is more likely to be maintenance than design related. It is not as if they are all popping off in the same way or at the same age.

I'd hardly thought they'd have had much time for any shortcomings in maintenance to have any effect. I think it's just that the engine has never been used in rail traction before, and perhaps could have been.... tested a bit more thoroughly, perhaps, before committing to production.

I wonder, though, if they do have any contingency plans like with the Brush Type 2s?

 

[scoope]

I think the whole fleet will be grounded soon however I dont think they will be sent back. If there are any alterations to do, they will be done here in the UK. remember the first batch of 56s from Romania. It is possible that....as happened throughout the introduction of electric and diesel in the 50s and 60s some classes take years to sort out.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....I wonder, though, if they do have any contingency plans like with the Brush Type 2s?

Most of the examples we see of "failed" classes had serious failures in one or two components, which were then put right (or not!). I cannot see any consistent pattern of failure like this in the 70s - please correct me if I have missed something. So either they are rubbish in many areas (which I doubt) or there is something in the operating conditions in the UK that is causing this.
I am reminded of the anecdote (may be apocryphal) of the early electric locos suffering from mysterious failures at the start of shifts - eventually tracked down to ex-steam drivers hosing down the cabs before taking the engines out. Unforeseen circumstances with a vengeance!

 

[BestWestern]

I'd hardly thought they'd have had much time for any shortcomings in maintenance to have any effect. I think it's just that the engine has never been used in rail traction before, and perhaps could have been.... tested a bit more thoroughly, perhaps, before committing to production.

I wonder, though, if they do have any contingency plans like with the Brush Type 2s?

I'd have to agree there. I would think it highly unlikely that any operator would be so incompetent with maintenance of a fleet of brand new locos, which doubtless are being monitored by the manufacturer and others as the 'prototypes' that they are, to cause such massive failure figures. And if that was the issue, it would surely have been identified and dealt with by now. This would seem to be a problem with the locos themselves I'd say.

Do we have any ideas at all on what is actually at fault yet, surely the techs must have come up with something by now?

 

[Pen Mill]

So the crocks are spread across all the batches. Are the faults consistent? If not, then it is more likely to be maintenance than design related. It is not as if they are all popping off in the same way or at the same age.

From the HH fleet 002/003 are stopped code N316 whatever that is. 015 is in for a B Exam .. routine maintenance ?
so I don't think the crocks are falling comsistently across the batches as 3/11 is not consistent with 7/8.

My thoughts for the farthing they're worth is that Intermodal Locos are used much more intensely than HH because they are fully laden terminal to teminal in both directions whereas the HH get breathing space eg coal trains running back empty.
Was this looked at under test conditions ?

 

[Whistler40145]

Why would Freightliner neglect maintenance on the Class 70s?

It would loose them business & no doubt land them in a right mess!


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[tsr]

Is it possible that some sort of cooling system closely linked to the traction motors might possibly be failing, perhaps due to a fault with the connection of a pump or fan caused by either the shape of the body (limiting effective cooling system space due to the design), new electronics or faulty materials? If these locos are used both consistently and intensively, perhaps the demand for cooling is too great for the fan beyond a certain catastrophic threshold which occurs once the engine has completed x miles within a given timespan. I'm most certainly not an expert on the Class 70 - far from it - but I just have a vague hunch from looking at the many photos and videos of 70s failing! I am more than happy to be corrected - I almost certainly will be!