Another boj question

[sdrennan]

If I buy an off peak Lancaster to Euston. Can I do a boj on both legs

 

[First class]

Restriction 3A:

Outward BoJ = Prohibited
Return BoJ - Permitted

No restriction applies 6-9 April 2012 inclusive.

If you decide to go Lancaster-London via Oxford (i.e. not direct), Break of Journey is permitted as it uses restriction GK instead. No evening peak either!

DON'T FORGET THOUGH, on most VT journeys to London it is nearly always cheaper to buy to Kensington Olympia.

 

[sdrennan]

OK, so if i buy a off peak ticket to Olympia i can cut journey short and leave at Euston????

What about if my plans change and I need to go to Wigan in morning. Could I buy a single to Wigan then use my Lancaster to London ticket from their a bit later in morning

 

[bb21]

Could I buy a single to Wigan then use my Lancaster to London ticket from their a bit later in morning

Some people disagree, however others believe that starting short is included in "break of journey".

 

[LexyBoy]

BoJ is not permitted on a Lancaster-Kensington Olympia ticket so you are not permitted to exit at Euston. It's only 90p cheaper anyway.

Likewise you would not be permitted to start short at Wigan. If you wish to do this you could buy a Wigan-London return and ask for an overdistance excess to Lancaster on the return portion when you get to London. (You would end up paying exactly the same price as if you had bought a Lancaster-London return in the first place, but would give a lot of extra work for ticket office staff). Alternatively a Lancaster-Wigan return (not day return, unless you're coming back the same day) plus Wigan-London tickets would be valid (you'd need to be on a train which stops at Wigan on the return journey).

This is what is permitted; whether you could get away with starting short at Wigan (obviously you'd have no problem leaving Euston) and whether your conscience would bear it is another question.

 

[island]

BoJ is not permitted on a Lancaster-Kensington Olympia ticket so you are not permitted to exit at Euston. It's only 90p cheaper anyway.

This particular one is however altogether unenforceable unless you have an RPI tail you to see whether you go to the tube and where you go!

 

[John @ home]

Deleted.

 

[island]

Are you sure you are quoting the correct Validity code, LM_?

The version available to the public makes it clear that break of journey is not allowed on the outward leg of the journey. This code applies to both Lancaster - London and Lancaster - Kensington O Off-Peak Returns (SVRs).

You've both said the same thing, no?

 

[First class]

Eh? You've just written what I posted in a different way??

 

[John @ home]

Are you sure you are quoting the correct Validity code, LM_?

You've both said the same thing, no?

Sorry. Brain failure.

 

[LexyBoy]

Just to clarify that via oxford is a different ticket to any permitted - whilst the any permitted is valid via oxford if you want, it isn't valid for BoJ on any route.

The text says "For Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction GK" - doesn't this mean that GK is appropriate if routeing via Oxford, rather than 3A? (Although the "Off Peak journeys" and "Super Off Peak journeys" doesn't make much sense unless "journeys" is read as "tickets").

Also, I can't see anything other than Any Permitted and Virgin Trns Only on either NRE or WebTIS.

 

[John @ home]

Just to clarify that via oxford is a different ticket to any permitted

I can't see anything other than Any Permitted and Virgin Trns Only

I agree with LexyBoy. Other than the £427 Virgin Business First Class Return, all flexible Lancaster - London Terminals fares are route Any Permitted, and are valid via Oxford.

The text says "For Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction GK" - doesn't this mean that GK is appropriate if routeing via Oxford, rather than 3A?

Once again, the wording is not clear. Do the words I have placed in bold mean

For Off-Peak journeys which pass through Hereford, and also pass through Oxford, and also pass through Newport

or

For Off-Peak journeys which pass through Hereford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Oxford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Newport

I don't know.

 

[34D]

The text says "For Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction GK" - doesn't this mean that GK is appropriate if routeing via Oxford, rather than 3A? (Although the "Off Peak journeys" and "Super Off Peak journeys" doesn't make much sense unless "journeys" is read as "tickets").

Also, I can't see anything other than Any Permitted and Virgin Trns Only on either NRE or WebTIS.

I was wrong. I was trying to give a note of caution to something I should have looked at more thoroughly before typing (and doesn't in fact need a note of caution). Could I ask a mod to tidy this up please and delete my error.

As to John's conundrum - "the interpretation most favourable to the passenger" I'd say!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

DON'T FORGET THOUGH, on most VT journeys to London it is nearly always cheaper to buy to Kensington Olympia.

In that situation, would he have to change Watford, or does the Kensington Olympia ticket include Maltese cross?

 

[island]

I don't think it has the cross, but that just means that your ticket isn't valid on the underground and you have to continue your journey at your own expense to where you pick up the next train. If it were routed NOT VIA LONDON then you would have to change at MKC/WFJ.

 

[First class]

I don't think it has the cross, but that just means that your ticket isn't valid on the underground and you have to continue your journey at your own expense to where you pick up the next train. If it were routed NOT VIA LONDON then you would have to change at MKC/WFJ.

It is +ANY PERMITTED

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Once again, the wording is not clear. Do the words I have placed in bold mean

For Off-Peak journeys which pass through Hereford, and also pass through Oxford, and also pass through Newport

or

For Off-Peak journeys which pass through Hereford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Oxford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Newport

I don't know.

The way it is written it must be via all three. If it read that you only had to pass through one of the three, it would probably read something like "For Off-Peak journeys that pass through Hereford and/or Oxford and/or Newport....", or possibly they might just exchange the 'and' for an 'or'.

 

[island]

That solves that then!

 

[LexyBoy]

For Off-Peak journeys which pass through Hereford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Oxford, and
for Off-Peak journeys which pass through Newport

I don't know.

The way it is written it must be via all three. If it read that you only had to pass through one of the three, it would probably read something like "For Off-Peak journeys that pass through Hereford and/or Oxford and/or Newport....", or possibly they might just exchange the 'and' for an 'or'.

It's clearly meant to apply to journeys which pass through any one or more of these, not all three. A Hereford-London SVR takes GK for example. As we all know though, it's not exactly unusual for ambiguous or plain wrong wording to be found in ticket restrictions...

It would be a very long way round to South Wales to go via Oxford, Hereford and Newport (and I suspect not a permitted route for most places - it's not for Cardiff-London for example).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Restriction code 3A, GK and infact virtually every other restriction code (if not all of them) apply to more than one route/journey/ticket.

So I don't think it is 'clearly meant to apply to journeys which pass through any one or more of these' at all.

Now if we actually read GK, (which up to this point I admit I hadn't read) it says....

For travel via Hereford and Oxford see 4N (out) and 4p (rtn)
For travel via Newport see LC (out+rtn)
For travel via Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton see 2C (out) and 9I (rtn)

Which does not entirely help as it is clear that travel via Oxford AND Hereford is valid by another code and via Newport is a yet another code.

So if we read in 3A that if you are going via Oxford, but not Hereford or Newport, that you use restriction code GK, is there no restriction?

I suppose, having read GK, what 3A could actually mean is if you are going via Hereford and Oxford or you are going via Newport, GK applies, but that would be very badly worded if true.

 

[John @ home]

The way it is written it must be via all three.

It's difficult to reconcile that with the wording of code GK, which places separate restrictions on:

• travel via Hereford and Oxford, and
• travel via Newport (South Wales).

The Routeing Guide tells us that there are no permitted routes between Lancaster Group and London Group via Hereford, and also that there are none via Newport. This makes it difficult to read code GK in any way which restricts the use of a Lancaster - London ticket on a journey via Oxford.

My conclusion therefore is that, irrespective of which meaning in my post #12 is correct, no time restrictions at all would apply to a Lancaster - London journey via Oxford journey using a SVR Lancaster - London.

Getting back to original question, break of journey would still be permitted on the return leg but not on the outward leg.

 

[jkdd77]

Getting back to original question, break of journey would still be permitted on the return leg but not on the outward leg.

I was once advised by East Coast that if a restriction code generally prohibiting BoJ told users wishing to travel by a certain specified route, to refer to a different restriction code permitting BoJ, then BoJ was permitted for travel on that route.

Specifically, I was told that a London- Glasgow SVR, according to East Coast, [which has restriction code 5F prohibiting BoJ on the outward leg] nonetheless instead takes restriction code 9F (which permits BoJ on both legs) if routed via Kings Cross and Stevenage, and therefore also permits BoJ on the outward leg if routed via KGX and SVG.

The essential question is whether the "secondary" restriction code for travel via a certain route applies in addition to, or instead of, the restrictions contained in the original "main" restriction code for that flow.

Such is our "simplified" fares system. :roll:

In practice, I suspect the courts would adopt the interpretation most favourable to the consumer, i.e. that BoJ was permitted unless *clearly* prohibited, given that NRCOC Condition 16 on BoJ states:
"However, these [BoJ] rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.".

 

[John @ home]

I was told that a London- Glasgow SVR, according to East Coast, [which has restriction code 5F prohibiting BoJ on the outward leg] nonetheless instead takes restriction code 9F (which permits BoJ on both legs) if routed via Kings Cross and Stevenage, and therefore also permits BoJ on the outward leg if routed via KGX and SVG.

I agree that a SVR London Terminals - Glasgow Cen/QSt route Any Permitted ticket takes validity code 5F and that part of that code is

Validity Code 5F

Code 9F applies for journeys from/via Kings Cross & Stevenage.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_5F.pdf

I also agree that where 5F is replaced by 9F, it is the whole of 9F which applies, including its rules on break of journey.

But I don't think that is the situation we have with our SVR Lancaster - London. We start with Validity Code 3A. That has a break of journey restriction, some time restrictions which are not relevant to a journey to Paddington via Oxford, and a number of references to other Codes.

Validity Code 3A

Code 1K applies for journeys to/via Kings Cross & Stevenage
Code 7E applies for journeys to/via St. Pancras International ...

No Break of Journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains ...

For Off-Peak journeys via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction GK

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_3A.pdf

We consider each of these other Codes in turn and decide that none of them apply. This leaves us with 3A, which for this route imposes no time restrictions but still prohibits break of outward journey.

 

[34D]

It is +ANY PERMITTED

Thank you Sir. My copy of NFM11 arrived today, and I see that you are indeed correct - bizarre that a ticket to Kenny O includes a tube journey from.... Erm.... I guess euston to waterloo (or any other single z1 journey on the tube) and the same on the way back (entering LU at a maltese cross interchange station)....